Iki ?

[cjs-dad]

Re: Iki ?

Steve, you just got my vote for best post of 2011.

Honorable mention to Unstop for his comment
“the key to things if a principle is valid it becomes the North Star”

[mel-man]

Re: Iki ?

quote Coda Vex:

That’s an ignorant comment based on what exactly? Apparently my money isn’t good enough to buy a black belt. Regardless of your hyperbole, his techniques are sound. I’m more concerned about functional movement and the ability to defend my self than the worship of a man or a name.

his techniques dont seem sound at all

[jl]

Re: Iki ?

Sure, agreed, if you can, hit first
my point is that is not a given, not 100% and that must be acknowledged. As per what SteveTuna wrote aboout in the bar scenario.

Also agreed that one should get up asap if you find yourself on the ground. Sometimes possible but NOT always (struggle with oponent, multiple attackers etc.)

I agree with Donavin on several fronts but especially in dealing with ground in general and the point about weapons on/off the ground.

Nir M.’s form of instruction is to the point and addresses these issues as do some of the other disciplines. I think that all would agree that having an adult conversation and the sharing of thoughts and ideas can do nothing but help us learn.

Ryan- “Go with the methodology that works for you. Look at what’s been proven to work over time. Train with as many people as you can, and take what works for you.” –again agreed.

Dynamics change, methodologies also change with time. So yes train what works for you, but also keep an open mind to things you do not know or have not trained in. IMHO

[psyops]

Re: Iki ?

Fancy techniques are garbage. Slap kicks are banned from my school. All of the instructors have been told to ignore this garbage. It is not a kick that you will see outside of a Tae Kwon Suck tournament. This is the problem with MCdojo style of instruction. Look, Krav Maga is going to go through the same thing that the other systems have gone through. In fact it already has to a certain extent. This is what happens when you have a “reality based” self defense system that is taught by many people who are dojo instructors. In other words they have never actually been in a real fight and they are only teaching theory. This is also what happens when you have schools that are primarily ring systems and after school day care kids programs trying to pass themselves off as legitimate Krav Maga. It’s hollow.

Bjj guy thinks that he can win a fight by taking it to the ground. Even though he has never rolled on the cement, in jeans, against a much larger attacker who has friends and/or is armed. But hey I guess that triangle/armbar combination is that deadly. Whatever. Belts are bull****. There are lots of guys out there with blackbelts and fancy titles.

[tzrider]

Re: Iki ?

quote Psyops:

So my suggestion to all Krav Maga enthusiasts, train with reputable sources. Multiple reputable sources.

quote Ryan:

Train with as many people as you can, and take what works for YOU.

I can’t really tell if you guys are disagreeing about something.

[ryan]

Re: Iki ?

We are. 😉

[cjs-dad]

Re: Iki ?

Im going to go out on a limb here and speak my mind for a change, countdown till I get my admin privs removed.

To me its not about what Imi taught back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth, its not what Nir taught to people who needed to survive versus unbearable circumstance, or John, Jon, Darren etc. They arnt Gods they are PEOPLE.

Its are you smart enough to understand the WHY, the concept, the big picture, add in the variables, explain it, articulate it and not just regurgitate it.

If I’m going to teach something I want to know why its better, I need to understand it, play with it, try and make it fail. And I don’t really care who invented it or what organization they belong to.

I remember I didn’t agree with one of the weapon retention techniques one day and me, Sam, Brent, Amir and you Donovan went over it in the hallway a Dz times. Remember that? Whose Krav was that? Mine, Amirs?

Ultimately id say it was Imis because we applied the principles, HIS principles.

I’ve forgotten how many similar conversations I’ve had with higher ranks.

The point is associations, ranks, alliances etc don’t matter, its about the material and can you understand through reason and logic based on the principles WHY we do something.

One of the most impressive things I’ve seen done during a BB test was Dave B stopping someone numerous times in the middle of a technique to ask them why. And you’d better be able to articulate your reason for doing something one way and not another.

Ask questions, question the answers and understand the WHY

[unstpabl1]

Re: Iki ?

Awesome post Sean and one of the reaasons i respect and like you as much as i do, even though we’ve only met a few times.thumbsup

Sums up my feelingss but much better written

[stevetuna]

Re: Iki ?

quote unstpabl1:

Awesome post Sean and one of the reaasons i respect and like you as much as i do, even though we’ve only met a few times.thumbsup

Sums up my feelingss but much better written

Agreed. 100%.

“Ask questions, question the answers and understand the WHY” = money.

[kmman]

Re: Iki ?

Training in Shotokan I was impressed with my Sensei for a lot of reasons but the one thing that always stands out in mind mind when I first met him was he asked me if I trained before. I told him I dabbled in Kenpo a bit. He seemed to not even know what Kenpo was and asked if we used a vertical fist. This coming from a guy that has trained in Judo and Shotokan since the 1960’s in Japan.

It wasnt that he didnt acknowledge other arts, as time went on I realized he just wasnt caught up in what someone does elsewhere. He had a firm belief in what he did, was able to teach application and he encouraged you to find your own way as well.

I found it refreshing he was so distanced from the politics of the various Shotokan organizations (he never mentioned another) and simply taught us what his Sensei taught him and what he believed….he then taught application and inspired us to do our best. I truthfully can not even tell you the other Shotokan “players” because I do not know.

What I like about KMWW is there is a curriculum for you to guage yourself, check on things and to be sure you are actually learning KM. Otherwise, its really your instructors that count…and I would say, although there should be the highest respect for Imi, it’s ultimately how you train today that counts.

As Bruce said….empty your cup.

[ryan]

Re: Iki ?

Ok, so I’m going to agree with a lot of what Sean said, but I’m also going to offer another take on a few things and ask a few more questions.

Either you can perform under REAL stress or you can’t. What are the best methods of getting someone to that point? Do we talk about eye gouges and neck breaks? Do we say “all you have to do is…”? Do we have “Krav Maga Fight Classes”? Do we train against resisting opponents? Do we establish a precedence for actual success? Do we assume because it’s taught to some spec ops group in a violent region of the world that it must be relevant to me? Do we speak in absolutes, saying things like “‘X’ WILL get you killed”? Do we ask the learned? Do we ask the experienced? Does experience matter? What experience matters?

Being able to articulate “why” is useful, to a point. Ultimately, though, what really matters is whether I survived or not. I have a good friend with zero rank in any system and no certifications of any kind, yet he’s been in more violent encounters than anyone I know and left more people unconscious than Nyquil. HIS opinion means a lot to me. In my opinion, find THOSE people. People like Richard Grillat. Be there, done that. The rest is theory.

[ryan]

Re: Iki ?

Ok, I’m going to blame Sean for my continuation of this. 😉

If you can’t “fight” a guy without a knife, what makes you think you can fight him with one? “Well, all you have to do is…” I call BS.

Also, and here’s where I get banned, if you have Krav Maga Fight classes at your school, you’re lying to your members. You CANNOT spar Krav Maga and adhere to the principles everyone seems to find so sacred. EVERY Krav Maga fight class I’ve seen, and I’ve seen them all over the world, is kickboxing with groin kicks. Yes, sometimes there are multiple opponents, takedowns, etc., but I’d wager that 75%+ are kickboxing with nut shots. This is from Donovan’s site about his “groundfighting” and “fight classes”:

Our ground fighting class is designed to teach students how to street fight effectively from the ground while focusing on getting the fight back to a standing position as soon as possible. This class uses techniques from Greco-Roman wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Judo and Krav Maga principles to create a highly effective street fighting ground system.

This class is designed for students who understand the basic mechanics of fighting: movement, basic punches, kicks, combinations, and defenses against attacks. In Fight class you will continue to sharpen these skills in a faster-paced environment than the Intro Fight class, with more sparring and a higher level of contact.
Training focuses on advanced combinations, feints, fighting in the clinch, takedowns, ground fighting, and fighting multiple opponents. Sparring at this level is more freestyle, with takedowns and grappling permissible in most scenarios.

Hmmm…call me crazy, but it sounds like a lot of “sport” aspects there. You CANNOT have a “fight” class without it! It would be much more honest to offer students a sparring program, which built a precedence for success and covered all ranges of fighting, than to say “KM Fight”. In true application, that class would last about 14 seconds and no one would ever come back…

[cjs-dad]

Re: Iki ?

quote Ryan:

If you can’t “fight” a guy without a knife, what makes you think you can fight him with one?

Well then I guess it’s a good thing Im better at knife fighting then I am at Krav. 🙂

[psyops]

Re: Iki ?

Ryan,

Funny thing is that we call alll of our classes Krav this, Krav that, it is for branding. Kickboxing with nutshots? Ok, that with multiple attackers and MMA gloves (140z), the occasional attack from an armed participant in fight class, but other than that it’s just like your program.

Again I have a lot of respect for what you have accomplished. I think the world of Jeff Jimmo. But my man, Bjj is bull**** in the street. You’d be better off spending the bulk of your time working against a weapon and multiple attackers than you would working on your Kimora!

Let’s not forget that little size equation thing. Oh yeah. It matters. So rolling with guys in your weight class is one thing. Move up about 50 -100lbs and report your findings. Lol.. Come on man. You know what? **** it. I am going to get out there and spend some time with you guys. What’s your schedule like this summer? I am serious I’d like to come out for a few days and roll with you! It will be fun. I am sure I can learn a lot and maybe share some ideas with you too. So please let me know when you are going to be around for a few days and I will come out.

[ryan]

Re: Iki ?

Send me some dates. We’ll have plenty of options, I’m sure. [email protected]

[Author]

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