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Re: ikmf or kmw?
Hi guys,
I train in the IKMF and I’ve also got the yellow KMWW book and from what I’ve seen the curriculums do differ in some of the ways mentioned. We certainly deal with knives from literally day one but defenses against sticks only come in at P4 and guns I think on the G levels. There does seem to be more emphasis on specific combative skills at the first belt in KMWW in the book at least but I wouldn’t say this is down to one organisation being specifically ‘military’ and one ‘civilian’ in their focus.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
Hello, I too train with the IKMF. First of all, I cannot compare the two organizations because I have never trained with KMWW, that being said I respect them for everything they have done for the system. In regards to what Fernando said, I don’t really see the system as being more ‘military’, but I think I understand what he means. Someone once told me that training at KMWW was like training at Bally’s; it begins with the basics, the instructors are like personal trainers, and the facilities are generally immaculate. The IKMF on the other hand is very ‘no frills’, nothing fancy, no beautiful facilities. Our instructors ARE more like military instructors in the way they administer the technique, kind of like how soldiers only have a small amount of time to learn a technique before they deploy. This may or may not have to do with the fact that our instructors are trained by the bosses back in Israel every year for quality control, and many of them served in the IDF at some point of time. On my very first night, I was defending myself against multiple attackers using knives, and within the first two months, I had also learned defences against guns and sticks. I mean, what is the point in training a system like this one, which is designed for rapid learning, if for your first year you only learn basic combatives and choke escapes. So what, I learn basics for months, and then one night on the way home I am confronted by a knife wielding maniac? To me, this is not very practical. Our syllabus is constantly rotating, from advanced techniques, back to basics over and over again. This is a system designed for fast learning, and I just don’t believe that it should take two years before one begins to learn weapons defences. I would like to train at a KMWW facility at least a few times in the future, or perhaps attend a seminar, so I could appreciate the best of both worlds, but for now, gotta maintain the status quo.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
Whoever compared KMWW to Bally’s has never trained at my current school or the school in Dallas that was kind enough to let me train while I was there last week. I never had a personal trainer give me the bruises that Jack Bolowskie left on my forearms from knife defense….of course, I guess I’ve never really had a personal trainer.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
Great discussion on this thread, good post fernando.
Would be great if US had wide opportunities to have both available, the closest IKMF from Orlando is 4hrs away Miami Rick Blistein, I think many states don’t have IKMF access at all.
If what has been discuss is fairly accurate IKMF sounds like it’s following a more rigid interpretation of IMI’s system and intentions for it.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
Yeah, I think in making the analogy of comparing KMWW to Bally’s, my associate was referring more to the facilities, than the instruction itself, and in no way was that meant to say that KMWW guys don’t train hard. Keep in mind that most KMWW schools are housed in karate schools and other dojo type establishments and so on, that are well equipped and nicely decorated (I’ve seen pics of the NTC’s), while most IKMF schools are very modest, and held in school gyms and community centres. When I go to the gym to lift weights, I have a 5 star fitness club with a/c, full of palm trees and mirrors. Instead, I choose to go train in the smelly basement dungeon weight room at the local YMCA 2 blocks away, because I feel that it is gritty and raw, and kind of enhances my training. In some ways, this is exactly how I want to feel about my km training-not fancy, but raw.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
quote policynutz:Yeah, I think in making the analogy of comparing KMWW to Bally’s, my associate was referring more to the facilities, than the instruction itself, and in no way was that meant to say that KMWW guys don’t train hard. Keep in mind that most KMWW schools are housed in karate schools and other dojo type establishments and so on, that are well equipped and nicely decorated (I’ve seen pics of the NTC’s), while most IKMF schools are very modest, and held in school gyms and community centres. When I go to the gym to lift weights, I have a 5 star fitness club with a/c, full of palm trees and mirrors. Instead, I choose to go train in the smelly basement dungeon weight room at the local YMCA 2 blocks away, because I feel that it is gritty and raw, and kind of enhances my training. In some ways, this is exactly how I want to feel about my km training-not fancy, but raw.You’ve been watching too many Rocky movies. Top level practitioners train at top level facilities. Do you think Wingate is an Ill equipped little dump? I think not.
I was going to abstain from this thread, because arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded. The type of training that some are referring to when referencing the IKMF (whether or not it’s accurate, I’ll leave to others more knowledgable than me) is alive and well at KMWW, it is called Force Training and it is available for Police and Military. It takes all of the Krav Curriculum and condenses it into 5 teachable 4 and 5 day sections. It takes in to account that the person learning the system is going to be put into harms way immediately after learning the techniques and does not have a lot of time to train. It is raw and unrefined and violent and beautiful. Going in to the Force Training side of things, I was already an Expert level Civilian Krav Maga instructor, and it was an eye opener. The Civilian training is much more precise and crisp. With the civilian training, we are playing the odds a bit and making sure that the trainee has mastered all of the basics before moving on to the next level. We do this because the likelyhood that the civilian trainee will come face to face with a violent encounter is far less than the Military/LEO end user, so we want to take the time to make sure that the civilian end users technique is as close to perfect as we can get. Everybody here has heard the term “Good enough for Government work”, right? Or how about “Combat Marksmanship”? Same thing. They both imply that we are willing to accept a slightly lower level of performance in exchange for a perceived benefit (in the formers case, usually money, in the latters case, time).
There is ample room for both methodologies, and I train and teach both. I personally feel that the more time spent on the basics before moving on to the advanced stuff, the better. That being said, the system IS designed to allow the MAXIMUM number of students to attain the MINIMUM acceptable level of performance in the MINIMUM amount of time. That is because it is a military system at heart, and that’s how Militaries work. The average civilian end user is not the same as the average Military (or LEO) user, so I prefer not to teach them the same way.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
Okay, first of all, no one here is arguing about anything, and this is not at all a political discussion. Of course Wingate is top notch, as it is an educational/sport institution. Do you honestly believe however that all the top guys train at Wingate all the time? They do their courses and upgrading there, but day to day they all have small, no frills clubs (usually nothing more than a medium-large sized room) all over Israel, especially in Netanya, which I have seen first hand. The whole point of what I was saying was that the IKMF appears to be less commercially oriented, and more focused on other things. This is no disrespect to KMWW, which I have already stated.
There is no need to be defensive because no one is attacking each others clubs, we are only making comparisons as to what our own experiences have been training with the different organizations, and I for one am very happy that it has remained politically neutral.Re: ikmf or kmw?
I train with IKMF, but also bougt the KMWW book. As Krav Maga practioners we must just take what we can use in our fights. If I see a great dirty trick from an other system like BJJ on tv, I just use it for Krav Maga sparring.
These sorts of dicussions have a tendency to end up in “My trainer can beat up your trainer” discussions. Overall the sumularities are much greater than the differences(politics aside)
Re: ikmf or kmw?
quote Huginn:…These sorts of dicussions have a tendency to end up in “My trainer can beat up your trainer” discussions…LoL, that’s right!
But the real question is… can you beat me eventhough my trainer can beat yours?okay just ignore this post I’m finishing a night shift and am tired.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
Rick Blitstein is with IKMA not the IKMF.
I have not had the opportunity to take any classes with KMWW or IKMF, but I can tell you that the 2nd class I attended, 4 years ago, I was introduced to gun defenses, which I thought was pretty cool and got me interested in a big way.
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Re: ikmf or kmw?
Knife defence is the first thing that I learned, which of course incorporated the 360 defence, so we were being exposed to basics and advanced at the same time. Each class is something different and it helps keep the training stay fresh and exciting, while at the same time continuously exposing students to the system as a whole. As for the whole ‘walk before running’ analogy, I just think that that applies to everything BUT KM training, because at its roots it is designed for fast learning, and regardless as to whether it is civilianized or not, it should remain true to its roots. It just seems like waiting until level 4 for weapons is a long time.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
Weapons!
I am a firm believer in showing defenses early on. Bursting and 360 defense can be taught in a short amount of time. Gun and Knife defense can also be taught in a short amount of time as well. Students will be challenged and of course they will not get them right most of the time. The idea is to increase the students understanding of the application of a technique. The student learns faster because their interest is high! They want to work the techniques and concentrate even more.
The argument against teaching these earlier usually is made by those who adhere to “time in grade” style of teaching and learning. I personally think “time in grade” is garbage. You can either do the technique or you can’t do the technique. It is that simple! So give the students more! Let them play with the concepts. Build drills that add stress and better performance from the student.
“Time in grade” is restrictive for many and boring for most. Again my feeling is that Krav Maga is a hybrid system. It is most effective when its practitioners are forced to learn on the fly and deal with things that are not in the book and therefore not based on a rigid curriculum that never alters.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
Thank you all for your opinions. My personal experience: When I had done about 3 months or IKMF, someone put a knife to my neck. I gave him my wallet and my cell phone. The two guys would not go away and I felt I would get hurt. I got out of it and ran like crazy… I appreciate the fact that the first thing I learned before punching or kicking was to defend against a knife and a gun and that the instructor said that a knife threat usually comes from 2 “offenders”. Kicking and punching alone would not have helped. Knowing how to slap the knife and align the guys before kicking and running worked.
That being said, my kicks and punches were at best “basic”. That is something that KMWW does MUCH better, especially in the first levels (in my limited personal experience).
That¥s what I mean when I say KMWW is more like a martial art than the IKMF.
BTW, can any of you tell me when it is that KMWW gets into guns/sticks with multiple opponents?
What saddens me is the political division. Both organizations have great things that the other doesnít have. KMWW is much better organized and structured but I feel they have overdone it (there is so much structure that you donít train in “real life” situations when you start, there is too much structure). The IKMF is so focused on situation training, that basics suffer, like punching and kicking. And they focus so much on making it “hard” to get to any level, that the organization suffers: it takes an instructor YEARS to be able to teach… and that¥s probably why it¥s not growing. I¥ve also heard IKMF is really expensive if you want to teach.
I asked once for the “list” of techniques I should know to get to level 1. They didnít have it! I¥m assuming Eyal and his instructors do have a list and that they give it to the instructors they certify, and this was an isolated case! KMWW usually has everything in writing…. take a look at the famous DL/JW book: everything is structured.
So my wish list: KMWW organization/methodology but focused on real situations, not techniques. You learn the techniques through the situations. The situations are designed in advanced, considering the techniques you want the student to learn, based on IKMF multi-opponent drills and KMWW technique practices (Cool).
Question: Have any of you tried the Commando KM seminars? A friend is going to one in December in LA, and wants me to go…. any opinions/experience?? is it worth the $2000?
Thanks!Re: ikmf or kmw?
I cannot agree that the IKMF neglects combatives. All of the combatives that are in the KMWW book are in the level 1 and 2 tests of the IKMF. Perhaps not every session focuses exclusively on punching and kicking, but some do, and even during weapon defence drills, all combatives are encouraged for offensive counter attacks, so we always train combatives anyhow. How difficult is it to learn how to do combatives anyhow? The majority of them are very basic, and even the more advanced ones are not that difficult. As for CKM, I urge you to read the other posts on CKM. Also, look up this site, http://commandokravmaga.com.au/ ,it is by the first ever certified CKM instructor from Australia, and you might want to read up on his experiences with CKM before spending all of your money and time on that route. My opinion, you are much better off training either KMWW, IKMF, or IKMA. These are the core KM organizations, and each has a direct connection to Imi Lichtenfeld. Bottom line, you cannot go wrong training with either of these organizations.
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