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Re: ikmf or kmw?
Holy crap, after watching Fight Quest, I don’t know how I could have forgotten Avivit Cohen and the nice people at KMF. Very reputable organization as well. Nice catch.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
quote Jeremy Stafford:…arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you’re still retarded.Hate to get off-topic, but you have been on quite a roll lately.
+1 rep points, sir!
Re: ikmf or kmw?
The two organizations have more similarities than differences. Although my level 1 students learn the curriculum as handed down from LA (I figure they put thought into how to build a fighter, not just flipping a coin on what to teach) I also teach them weapons defenses. Just because it’s not in their testing curriculum doesn’t mean it’s not taught. If you think about it they are learning weapons from the very beginning, they just don’t know it. Our 360’s and low defense are the same wether it’s a punch or a knife, etc.
The put down that KMW is more “martial art” is absurd. Krav couldn’t be further from a martial art. Saying it is “technique based” is equally absurd. We teach techniques (students need to learn to punch, knee, etc. correctly) but it is hammered into the students head that krav is principle based. “If you learn 1000 self defense techniques you will be attacked by number 1001” – J. Whitman
The put down on how kmw is watered down to make money – making money only happens when people see the value, like the classes, have professional instructors and the system is proven. Yep, it is making money in the US. Why do you think the IKMF is making such a push here?
Re: ikmf or kmw?
quote Psyops:Weapons!I am a firm believer in showing defenses early on. Bursting and 360 defense can be taught in a short amount of time. Gun and Knife defense can also be taught in a short amount of time as well.
Me too, most Krav techniques are simple and do not require a lot of athleticism. I say, give them the most important stuff, early on, against the most common attacks. Then progress through multiple attackers, multiple weapons, and less common attacks.
For the subject of games in class, what looks like a game seems to me like a failure drill, in the video you see people running into each other and doing very sloppy defenses, which are probably done crisply in a repetitive and 1v1 drill.
I don’t think it’s a big deal to choose between IKMF and KMW, first of all there are very few IKMF schools in US. Second, it’s like going to any martial arts class, you need to visit the place and make sure you’re comfortable with it.
With either discipline IMO your odds are high of receiving quality, reality based defense training.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
[QUOTE=skibum;32609]Ryan and Kevin Mack, this relay type of drill (at least the way we did it) with actual Krav techniques at each end (when they have to be done fast and instructor also watches for proper execution) are useful for simulating performing in stress situation (physical stress from running and performing the technique correctly at speed, and mental stress in tryng to be faster than opposing team).QUOTE]
As an instructor I see absolutely zero benefit from this “training” for purposes of improving KM. I don’t care what organization they are, it is of no matter when looking at the actual content. I would argue that the stick defenses were NOT done properly; the rest of it is unknown because I honestly could not tell what the heck they were doing. I will say that I don’t know IKMF and perhaps this is how they actually do Krav MagaÖ I have seen some ìchangesî to gun defenses that scare the hell out of me and I would not do, but I think that was discussed in another thread.
Any technique you do you should executed properly when in training, as you will only be able to perform a fraction of that when under stress. This faux training drill does not emphasize technique and does not adequately induce a reality based atmosphere. If you are going to take time in class to perform a technique, donít stop at half of the technique (just make the defense) and not add combatives. To do this is to set you up for failure. How is that realistic? Perhaps the defense is enough, but likely it will not be so let’s use KM’s philosophy and train from a position of disadvantage…
I would never forgive myself if I taught a student a technique, then only drilled on half of it for even a moment (other than breaking it down to teach) and he or she were attacked and the technique failed. This is our worst fear as an instructor, and if its not- you need a new calling. The burden on us is great and it is taken seriously by many.
It irks me when I see this video, itís just a damn shameÖ wasting a students precious time and money to play ìsnatch the pebbleî. Letís hope the video was for entertainment purposes onlyÖ
Re: ikmf or kmw?
Kirsten,
With all do respect I have seen some pretty crappy drills at KMWW schools too. Have you ever trained with IKMF? The main reason I chose to do so is because I wanted to see the differences and similarities. I must say that having been trained with both organizations has improved my overall understanding and applicaiton of approaches. The problem with drills is that the context of the lesson can not always be conveyed via video. For instance I have been to KMWW schools and seen students throwing repetitive knees to kick shields. Knee after knee after knee. This is not at all realistic. Yet the argument could be made for conditioning. But this is Krav not fkn Tae Bo!
The biggest challenge for many schools is that the instructors are only teaching the theory of self defense or the theory of fighting. Most instructors have never been in a real situation and furthermore they don’t know the difference between fighting and self defense. So regardless of organization,the drills themselves,personal preferences etc.. the main ingredient to an effective lesson/drill is the instructor’s experience with application of the techniques not just the mindless repetition that plauges many Krav Maga schools regardless of organizational alliances.
I mean there are Krav Maga schools teaching students to “work on their ground game” WTF? Sub par instructors at tae kwon do based schools claiming to teach Krav Maga are doing more damage than good. I think levels and belts should be thrown out. They serve no purpose. Too many alleged level 4 and 5 students don’t know the very basic application of the techniques. Too many students are being held back by restricitve curriculums. Too many instructors are being too picky about the perfection of a technique.
Perfection is a dream. It is not attainable as a true attack is far too organic and changes from moment to moment. What matters is that our students are able to undertand the nature of the attack and deal with it with an appropriate response. Survival is what matters not the technique! So if the technique is less important than the application of the technique it can be said that the training method is less important than the application of the technique as well.
It is not IKMF or KMWW it is the effectiveness of the applications of the techniques, regardless of the source.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
I am not sure why every one throws TKD around when slinging mud? I guess I am a sub-par instructor then having trained in it for most of my life and then teaching Krav Maga. It is too bad the elitist martial arts society feels this wayÖ But I can look at a technique and decide whether or not itís a practical defense and not train in it. Do I think I understand that system? No. Of course not, but isnít this how we all came to what we are training in currently? We saw it and went “OMG, that is amazing and I need to learn that”!
I look at everything taught to me and decide for myself if I agree with it. And I have seldom had an issue with KMWW, and when I do I go straight to Jon or Darren and get an answer. I hope that everyone has that experience not matter where they train. I was trying to avoid that whole part of the thread.
The point is, I think the differences between a knee drill (combatives) and a poorly executed defense against a blunt object (a deadly weapon) with no combatives is huge. Working combatives in multiples is an effective way to train especially when it is desirable to give more than one. Working a defense against a deadly weapon and only working half of it, just doesnít seem to make any sense to me. Unless if you forgot under stress to add the rest of it as you had been doing in training, and now you find your still under attack and in need of doing it all over again. If you like this drill use it, if you donít like the kneeís drill, donít use it. No biggie to me.
And no disrespect taken, I put my big girl panties on today. 🙂 I am not looking to turn it into a match over who can piss farther (I can’t stand and pee so I am likely to lose), IKMF or KMWW. Letís leave that to the trolls that never train. I am only giving my opinion on what I actually saw on the video and more specifically that defense drill against an attacker with a deadly weapon. I donít think perfection is what I am looking for. But instead I want to see a solid defense with combatives. Maybe my standards are too strict, maybe its a sub-par Taekwondo thing, I donít know. I just wonít budge on defenses because there is very little margin for error and the stakes are so high.
I do have my guys work on their ground defenses. Working patrol, most of the assault reports I took were from people that ended up there so of course I stress it. Just make it realistic and don’t stay there. If you get down, get to business, and get out- eh? 🙂 But if you want to work submissions, take Oneness’ Bas Rutten MMA class and not the KM one.
There are drills from everywhere you can use. I use Taekwondo drills in my Bas Rutten and Thai-Boxing classes, if you like it and it suits a purpose then use it. But do I use TKD drills in my self-defense classes? No I donít, I use drills that are more realistic and prepare my students for the fight of their life. Perhaps this KM school in India feels they are doing just that or perhaps the rest of the drill was left out on the editing, who knows.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
[quote=Kirsten;36032]I am not sure why every one throws TKD around when slinging mud? I guess I am a sub-par instructor then having trained in it for most of my life and then teaching Krav Maga. It is too bad the elitist martial arts society feels this wayÖ
And no disrespect taken, I put my big girl panties on today. 🙂 quote]
First off…Yawn…is this thread still active:Deadhorse::banghead: You’d have thought Mr.Stafford’s special olympic line would’ve ended it months ago. If you want to get a feel for where this is all headed go spend some time reading the crap on kenponet. kenpotalk, americankenpoforum. Don’t blame me or try to sue me for any drop in your IQ points after.
There are a few alphabet soup groups now, they’ll be more in the future. In the end we train to better ourselves not our instructor, the school and certainly not an organization. What difference does it mean to a student that Darren and Eyal had a business disaggreement and parted company. Does it lessen their ability to teach the system. Each may have their own way of teaching it, but my understanding is its a princple based system, what difference does it make if someone invented a new drill to explore the princple. You may think the drill sucks but its simply another way to expirience and explore a concept and we only truely learn through expiriencing
Now Kirsten seeing you got your big girl panties on and we’ve bonded a bit i feel i can be myself with you and not have to be all PC and s#$t or hurt your feelings
Most here don’t know or didn’t know your a 3rd in what is referred to on the net as Crap Cwon Do, whether fairly or unfairly. So don’t take it personally. A lot of the frustration on this forum has been with certain ATA affiliates not necessarily TKD in itself. And those complaints don’t have to do with TKD per se but lack of follow thru on their Krav programs. This is a Krav forum
remember its not what you train in but how you train it. I remember some hardcore TKD schools in the late 70’s that look nothing like the patty cake stuff yousee in a lot of schools now. Why? because of the focus of the instructor and the students. TKD has become an Olympic sport and an after school program for kids. The focus seems to have drifted away from Reality Based Self Defense which as a a Force instructor and a KMAA affiliate is your focus now. So somewhere along the line you must have realized that the system you trained half your life in wasn’t fufilling your needs as an adult or current affairs. You’ll have to forgive posters if they make that same distinction. Besides we can’t be “Elitist Martial Artists” as Krav Maga isn’t a martial art. I can cite post on post about thatrofl2The mentality of someone focused on RDSD is that martial arts will for the most part lose focus on the reality of fighting and focus on Do or the Way.
I doubt psyops even knew you were a 3rd in TKD. But either way He’d probably forgive you for your mispent youth as you’ve come to the dark side in your current rankings. Egad I can’t believe you spent most of your life doing TKD. Bet Krav Fight class was an eye opening expiriencerofl2 You do get I’m teasing you right?
Don’t take the Net or forums personally. Too much more important things to deal with like good pizza or beer:beer:
Re: ikmf or kmw?
Kirsten,
I had no idea about your TKD background. So no offense was intended. I too have always been able to speak to the hirearchy of Krav regarding issues I may have. I understand that you teach from your perspective. You are basing your judgement of IKMF on one piece of video? Least we forget that IKMF and KMWW were once in partnership!
I am affiliated with both organizations and I am telling you that the training in both have merit. The MMA mentality that has leaked into our system is well documented and if you ask other instructors who have been around for a while they will admit it, well if they are honest they will admit it. This is a problem. I don’t like it at all and it will never be part of a curriculum at any school that I am instructing.
The repetitive knees were an example of unrealistic training. The concept is correct as far as aggression but the strategy is wrong. So much time is spent banging pads that strategy and tactics and more importantly the difference between the two are rarely spoken of anymore. Krav Maga is a system of concepts not absolutes.
I know you are very skilled. I have done my homework. So take no offense to anything I say because it is not meant in that way. I do not defend all of IKMF strategy or tactics. I do not defend all of KMWW either. My job as an instructor is to present options to students that are all based deeply on the principles that we all agree on: address the threat, attack the source, don’t get hurt, escape when safe, hit hard, hit often and never comply.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
I have a great sense of humor and I don’t get offended on forums- especially these days. I think I am going to hijack the thread. I am usually more interested in what led people to what they are doing todayÖ
You know its funny how one thing leads to another. I actually wanted to do kickboxing after reading an article on Kathy Long when I was a kid… but sadly there were no places to train and like 5 TKD schools… so I visited them all and picked the one where the instructor did not talk smack about any of the other schools and actually encouraged me to shop around.
I got lucky and got a great instructor as a result. I don’t at all feel like it was a wasted youth (some do think that but i know your teasing). When I first started KM I thought it was but then realized it had laid a wonderful foundation for what was to come. The aggression I learned while competing at that level prepared me for KM sparring. It was no shock at all to step into sparring for KM, except now I had to wear heavy shin pads, huge gloves and a silly oversized headgear.
I would still be doing it today but I just can’t do it. I never speak about why but I will today to explain that it wasn’t because I didn’t value it. After a young student of mine died at 13, I could no longer stomach teaching it in 2000. Every time I walked on the training floor and caught a glimpse of a student from the back that resembled him, I would think just for a second it was him. It broke my heart all over again. I just couldnít do it anymore and had to stop teaching.
He was my only student I took with me when I left my old school (my instructor still doesn’t speak to me because of this) and I had been teaching him since he was a small child. He was going to get my school one day; I was building it for him. He was my student, training partner, friend, little bro and like a son to me. I will never teach children again as a result and I learned to never get that personal with students.
But it all works out in time and because I moved on from TKD, I am teaching people how to stay safe not win a medal and that is the best prize ever! I love Bas Rutten MMA, wrestling, Thai-boxing and Krav Maga. All things I never thought I would be doing 10 years ago! Now for that pizza and beer… 🙂
Re: ikmf or kmw?
[quote=Kirsten;36056I never speak about why but I will today to explain that it wasn’t because I didn’t value it. After a young student of mine died at 13, I could no longer stomach teaching it in 2000. Every time I walked on the training floor and caught a glimpse of a student from the back that resembled him, I would think just for a second it was him. It broke my heart all over again. I just couldnít do it anymore and had to stop teaching.
He was my only student I took with me when I left my old school (my instructor still doesn’t speak to me because of this) and I had been teaching him since he was a small child. He was going to get my school one day; I was building it for him. He was my student, training partner, friend, little bro and like a son to me. I will never teach children again as a result and I learned to never get that personal with students.
[/quote]
Kirsten,
That is a sad story and I am sorry to here about it. Obviously he was very close to you and the pain is still there. He was blessed to have you in his life for a time, and he in yours. Treasure that time and don’t let the bad ending erode the good times you shared.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
As an instructor I see absolutely zero benefit from this “training” for purposes of improving KM. I don’t care what organization they are, it is of no matter when looking at the actual content. I would argue that the stick defenses were NOT done properly; the rest of it is unknown because I honestly could not tell what the heck they were doing. I will say that I don’t know IKMF and perhaps this is how they actually do Krav MagaÖ I have seen some ìchangesî to gun defenses that scare the hell out of me and I would not do, but I think that was discussed in another thread.
Any technique you do you should executed properly when in training, as you will only be able to perform a fraction of that when under stress. This faux training drill does not emphasize technique and does not adequately induce a reality based atmosphere. [/quote]
IMO, the techniques were done improperly, because the students were failing under the stress of the drill. It looked to me like a “failure” drill.
I like failure drills. The first ones I did, I was amazed at how I flubbed the simple knife defenses that I had thought I had mastered, under calmer circumstances. That’s the value of the failure drill.
I still flub them, but usually it takes a harder failure drill than it used to for that to happen, that’s the idea I guess.
If you don’t like “snatch the pebble” (we do snatch the knife in our class, but maybe these guys were on a budget?) by all means leave it out of your class. I like it since it mimics a real life situation where a weapon has been dropped and it’s a race to grab it.
Re: ikmf or kmw?
quote Kirsten:Any technique you do you should executed properly when in training, as you will only be able to perform a fraction of that when under stress. This faux training drill does not emphasize technique and does not adequately induce a reality based atmosphere. If you are going to take time in class to perform a technique, don’t stop at half of the technique (just make the defense) and not add combatives. To do this is to set you up for failure. How is that realistic? Perhaps the defense is enough, but likely it will not be so let’s use KM’s philosophy and train from a position of disadvantage…IMO, the techniques were done improperly, because the students were failing under the stress of the drill. It looked to me like a “failure” drill.
I like failure drills. The first ones I did, I was amazed at how I flubbed the simple knife defenses that I had thought I had mastered, under calmer, repetitive circumstances.
I still flub them, but usually it takes a harder failure drill than it used to for that to happen, so I feel I have progressed with the technique.
The value to me for “snatch the pebble” (better with a knife, maybe these guys were on a budget?) is it mimics a real life situation where a weapon has been dropped and it’s a race to grab it. We progress to arms folded, arms behind the neck, backs turned, eyes closed, etc., I think it’s useful but that doesn’t mean everyone would.
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