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Re: KM Weaknesses?
Kirsten,
Noone was trying to teach you anything. You must have all the knowledge needed. I only have a couple of decades of KM experience and knowledge so I will try not to let it seep out again. My only point is that you cannot use the same pluck for any type choke. There is usually a push or a pull effect when the choke is applied. A standing static choke is unusual or simply not all that common in my experience. (we call that the frankenstein choke) I do disagree humbly about a civilians experiencee against a LEO training and experience. In that way of thinking, KM needn’t have a Force Training Division. And lastly, just because a person may have differing experiences, there is no need to have a condescending attitude. If you have all the experience and knowledge you need, so as no further knowledge is required, then I am truly happy for you. I myself learn something new daily, from all sources possible. Good Day!Re: KM Weaknesses?
A great thread!
The conversation about the pluck is interesting. The choke from the front without a push is not at all common. JL is correct. However I too have seen both men and women struggle with executing the pluck under stress. So the choke from the front with a push defense is a fantastic transition. Again the idea that a Kravist can perform all of the defenses perfectly under duress is laughable. It is the height of arrogance to believe that this is even possible.
On training LEO VS Civilians I believe that LEO’s are actually more confined. They are restricted by civil liberties, department policy, fear of being fired or sued and most importantly ineffective defensive tactics they learn at the Police Academy. Civillians have every right to defend themselves with “enough force” neccesary to stop the assailant. Liability should be the last thing on your mind when you are being attacked. If you stick to the principles of leaving when safe,this should cover any excessive force issues.
The real issue is mindset. How fast can we as Kravists go from passive to aggressive while maintaining full complete awareness. I encourage my students to be ruthlessly aggressive in the moment of truth. Break whatever they hit. Gouge his eyes. Crush his testicles. Elbow his throat. Tear his ear off! This is what will keep you safe. Aside from that get an additional liability policy and let your insurance worry about it!
Kristen I don’t understand the Bruce Lee comment. That guy had it right! Katas and forms are not neccesary. Neither are ineffective techniques. So take what we like and discard the rest! Not every technique in our manual is a personal favorite of mine. Most are sound some are absurd. Just my opinion.
Re: KM Weaknesses?
quote JL:Kirsten,
Noone was trying to teach you anything. You must have all the knowledge needed. I only have a couple of decades of KM experience and knowledge so I will try not to let it seep out again. My only point is that you cannot use the same pluck for any type choke. There is usually a push or a pull effect when the choke is applied. A standing static choke is unusual or simply not all that common in my experience. (we call that the frankenstein choke) I do disagree humbly about a civilians experiencee against a LEO training and experience. In that way of thinking, KM needn’t have a Force Training Division. And lastly, just because a person may have differing experiences, there is no need to have a condescending attitude. If you have all the experience and knowledge you need, so as no further knowledge is required, then I am truly happy for you. I myself learn something new daily, from all sources possible. Good Day!I corrected you after you made assumptions about the defense I did against a wall. We all have training, like most every KM instructor here- in more than one style and at an elite level. The last place anyone will be put down for training is here. Its actually the opposite, you have only training in KM- most instructors don’t really respect just a singular training approach to anyone system here, including KM. Most of us still train in new systems and work hard to improve the ones they are involved in.
I am LE and I have been a civilian which gives me and those here like me a better insight to the differences of LE / Civillian. The difference in the training is merely how it relates to the person doing the defenses, ie a civilian need not worry about weapon retention in the holster, or arrest and control with handcuffs, or OC baton retention, … etc. That’s the difference, not at all in fighting spirit or ability to complete a technique successfully. Trust me when I say that the crap you get at an academy level makes no person super human… That’s why they created the FTD… Not because lil soccer mom’s couldn’t do certain defenses. Perhaps that is the reasoning in other KM systems, but not the spirit behind the creation of the KMWW Force Training Division to which I am a member of.
I will argue that any person can learn anything with in reason. I don’t care if she is 212 lbs or 112 lbs… Wearing a tac vest or a Gucci bag. She can do the defense just fine if its a KM technique. It has to be that way.
Re: KM Weaknesses?
What I meant by Bruce’s philosophy on martial arts seem ideal, however he was a freak of nature in what he could do. He was fast, smart, strong and a natural athlete. There has been nobody else like him and what works for him may not be what works for me or other people my size, or for really big guys… its dangerous to only pick and choose what to teach in KM. You have to teach it all and let the person decide on some of the defenses what they like to use or what works best for them.
Re: KM Weaknesses?
Kirsten you are my hero, I love when you post!
For what its worth I used to have a problem with plucking on any of the techniques when it was a large man because I usually tried more strength on strength and they would win every time. If I didn’t get it the first time id frantically grab the hand/wrist and start yanking. But as I practiced more and more my instructor corrected me showing me that it was more about the bursting force. Since then I haven’t really had any issue vrs anyone! Granted sometimes I end up with claw marks on my neck but nothing a little cover-up cant handle. And to think I used to be worried about hickysRe: KM Weaknesses?
quote Farhan:And as far as de-escalation and, legal issues and knowing when to stop, my school covers these issues at one point or the other during the KM journey.Hi Farhan, glad to hear you delve into those topics! It is not uncommon, especially in a blue state like CA, for people to second guess you (LE or civilian). For LE, they often scrutinize the force used and the tactics that led up to a use of force (even if the force was good). For civilian, be prepared to answer questions like “what did you do to try to avoid or defuse the fight? why didn’t you leave?” etc.
IMO, it’s always better to avoid a fight, even if it means swallowing some pride/ego/machismo/whatever. There are many more possible negative outcomes to a fight than positive. Similarly, I’d much rather talk someone into the back seat of my car. If I can use tactical communication, verbal judo, jedi mind tricks, etc to gain control of a situation, resolve the problem, stop the threat, I’m a happy guy.
Besides more and more BGs training in MA these days, a lot of them have germs and bugs. No bueno if I righteously whoop someone good but, a few months later, come down with HIV, Hepatitis, or someother permanent malady.
Re: KM Weaknesses?
quote Kirsten:What I meant by Bruce’s philosophy on martial arts seem ideal, however he was a freak of nature in what he could do. He was fast, smart, strong and a natural athlete. There has been nobody else like him and what works for him may not be what works for me or other people my size, or for really big guys… its dangerous to only pick and choose what to teach in KM. You have to teach it all and let the person decide on some of the defenses what they like to use or what works best for them.IME, Sigung Bruce’s philosophy(ies) on “absorbing what is useful and discarding the rest” was more for Individual use and development – Not for teaching. As we know, to be a good fighter, we don’t necessarily need a whole library of techniques for our arsenal. Often, a good fighter may only have a handful of “primary techniques” but he/she can do them really well and be highly successful at executing them when he/she wants/needs to.
Guro Dan offers this great analogy (and I’m really not doing it justice with this poor paraphrasing). Studying/training MA/DT/etc is like eating at a buffet. If all of us go there and eat, when we get back to our table, we’ll find that all of our plates are different. Who’s to say that the combination of food on his plate is “better” than the food on someone else’s plate? My plate tastes good to me, your plate tastes good to you, and we both avoid going hungry. (The trick is finding a good buffet – good selection, good food)
When it comes to teaching, OTOH, as Kirsten is saying, now we are the ones putting on the buffet. It’s our job to provide a complete menu and/or as much variety so that our students have a decent selection to choose from. A number #1 combo from McDonald’s will get the job done when it comes to filling your stomach but not everyone likes or wants the #1. Plus, even if you do like the #1, eating it day in/day out can still get tiresome and old (besides, it’s really not all that healthy for you to begin with lol).
Re: KM Weaknesses?
There are two topics here, one is on mindset and training and the other is on technique.
I want to comment on technique and in particular the plucking defense. The pluck is do-able for almost everyone with enough training, but the rotational defense is a more effective defense in the end. Here’s the catch: The plucking movement is far more instinctive, so it happens first under most circumstances. I base that statement from years of very early KM experience with very talented martial artists seeing Krav Maga for the first time. Many, many of them had GREAT choke defenses from their own styles, but once we put them under EXTREME STRESS guess what? 95% of the time the hands went FIRST to the choke (as in plucking motion), then they executed their styles defense. So what’s faster under stress? What’s easier to learn initially with minimal training? If the pluck fails, go to the rotational defense, or whatever works for you. No big deal. But one part of what makes Krav Maga unique is its ability to turn instinctive movements into a usable defense, and at THAT it’s an amazing system. But it’s not infallible.I agree with Kirsten on several points; FIRST I don’t care if you’re a 110 pound civi or LEO, train like your life depends on it. The difference isn’t in the uni, the title, or the badge… it’s in the training, mindset, and experience.
Second, Iíve seen 90 pound women make the pluck defense against 230 pound men, but only after enough training. The pluck is easy, but at that level of disadvantage, don’t expect it to work without lots of practice on many finer points.Re: KM Weaknesses?
quote JamesH:There are two topics here, one is on mindset and training and the other is on technique.
I want to comment on technique and in particular the plucking defense. The pluck is do-able for almost everyone with enough training, but the rotational defense is a more effective defense in the end. Here’s the catch: The plucking movement is far more instinctive, so it happens first under most circumstances. I base that statement from years of very early KM experience with very talented martial artists seeing Krav Maga for the first time. Many, many of them had GREAT choke defenses from their own styles, but once we put them under EXTREME STRESS guess what? 95% of the time the hands went FIRST to the choke (as in plucking motion), then they executed their styles defense. So what’s faster under stress? What’s easier to learn initially with minimal training? If the pluck fails, go to the rotational defense, or whatever works for you. No big deal. But one part of what makes Krav Maga unique is its ability to turn instinctive movements into a usable defense, and at THAT it’s an amazing system. But it’s not infallible.I agree with Kirsten on several points; FIRST I don’t care if you’re a 110 pound civi or LEO, train like your life depends on it. The difference isn’t in the uni, the title, or the badge… it’s in the training, mindset, and experience.
Second, Iíve seen 90 pound women make the pluck defense against 230 pound men, but only after enough training. The pluck is easy, but at that level of disadvantage, don’t expect it to work without lots of practice on many finer points.but the plucking defence is just a rainy day technique why does km spend so much time training a technique that isnt likely going to ever be needed?your much more likely to get grabbed by the collar for a headbutt so what your training to do is try to break the grip thats shortly doing to be fallowed up with a headbutt. the more logical thing to do is to shoot a palm heal strieght up the middle into his noise until he is forced to cover up, that works for bothe scenarios.
Re: KM Weaknesses?
quote blanker:but the plucking defence is just a rainy day technique why does km spend so much time training a technique that isnt likely going to ever be needed?your much more likely to get grabbed by the collar for a headbutt so what your training to do is try to break the grip thats shortly doing to be fallowed up with a headbutt. the more logical thing to do is to shoot a palm heal strieght up the middle into his noise until he is forced to cover up, that works for bothe scenarios.Correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t KM teach the one handed pluck with a palm strike along with the 2 handed pluck? Out of the two I prefer the one handed but going back to the “buffet” analogy it’s what works for me.
Re: KM Weaknesses?
quote blanker:but the plucking defence is just a rainy day technique why does km spend so much time training a technique that isnt likely going to ever be needed?your much more likely to get grabbed by the collar for a headbutt so what your training to do is try to break the grip thats shortly doing to be fallowed up with a headbutt. the more logical thing to do is to shoot a palm heal strieght up the middle into his noise until he is forced to cover up, that works for bothe scenarios.I agree with Blanker to a certain extent. There are some weaker techniques in Krav that could use some evolution, yet some say that they’re rock solid and proven simply because they’re part of the system. The two handed pluck is a good example.
I’m no expert, but I concur with earlier posters who emphasized the unlikeliness of a static standing choke. I think there will always be forward movement from the attacker until an opposing obstruction is hit, subsequently offering the attacker the control position required to complete the choke. I’ve felt a real choke (undoubtedly as many of you have) and panic consumes you when fight/flight kicks in. I think a flailing retreat to free the neck combined with a technique such as the arm overhead defense would be most plausible & effective if someone is trynig to squeeze the life out of you. Thinking that the attacker will stand stock still with arms motionless and extended and legs spread just wide enough for a strike to the groin is unlikely IMHO.
The choke could follow or alternate between blows to the head/body, limiting the attackers ability to face them squarely for the pluck and/or kick. There may be a bar or other obstruction between them that negates a groin kick. The victim could be in a car (reportedly where Rhiana was) where an effective 2-handed pluck might not be physically feasible. I realize the scenarios and unexpected what-ifs are endless, but I think the two handed pluck is only effective under “ideal” circumstances with a non-lethal training partner meeting the unlikely criteria to enable its effectiveness.
I wholeheartedly believe some earlier posters hit the nail on the head when they said that the context and principles of Krav are what really count. To me, those are the mightiest benefits of training. If ever the time comes where Krav becomes warranted, your will and mindset become the most effective tools in your arsenal.
Re: KM Weaknesses?
quote Hemibuck:Correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t KM teach the one handed pluck with a palm strike along with the 2 handed pluck? Out of the two I prefer the one handed but going back to the “buffet” analogy it’s what works for me.Yes. Blanker’s scenario could employ a typical KM defense, front choke one hand pluck simultaneous palm heel strike. Why just throw the palm heel strike when you could pluck with one hand, take that arm out of the fight and possibly control it at least briefly while you throw the palm heel strike. You lose nothing and potentially gain something.
Even if you did the two hand pluck and fired off a groin kick, you probably have preempted the head butt he is describing.
Re: KM Weaknesses?
quote MagaMike:Yes. Blanker’s scenario could employ a typical KM defense, front choke one hand pluck simultaneous palm heel strike. Why just throw the palm heel strike when you could pluck with one hand, take that arm out of the fight and possibly control it at least briefly while you throw the palm heel strike. You lose nothing and potentially gain something.Even if you did the two hand pluck and fired off a groin kick, you probably have preempted the head butt he is describing.
thats a good point and i agree with you to a certain extent but the point i was trying to make that when the adrenalin kicks in your higher brain function starts to shut down and this is were the fault is with having 3 techniques. you need to base your training on 1 technique (say palm heal strikes to the ko button) so you dont get overwhelmed with techniques, you cant be thinking is he choking me or grabbing my collar is he using 2 hands or one or should i strike the chin or kick to the groin. if you base your training on 1 strike to one target you dont need to think about it, of course you need to learn back up techniques for instance if you cant get to the chin or if someone is attacking you fron behind but still your only talking about learning a hammer fist and a kick. with just those 3 techniques you can deal in almost all attacks you will ever come across.do you really need to learn 3 different ways to defend every grip or 5 different ways to do a streight line strike its just more and more techniques, think about it this ways, if you took all the time you spend training front chokes, jag and cross punches spear hands web strikes forarm strikes elbows and just trained palm heals you would have a pretty good palm heal rather then a bunch of techniques that are ok no were near as good as if you just trained the palm heal.
Re: KM Weaknesses?
This is what i do like about his forum. we can agree to disagree without being too nasty to one another. Kristen, first, thank you for your service to your community(LE). Second, there are always going to be discussion on what IS the proper tech. I do have other MA experience (JuJitsu, Judo) that actually led me to KM in the first place. Second, your point on what an LE has for responsibilities and constrictions is the basis for my view.Her training is such that she will never be ‘Just like any other 110lb. female.’ (gun retention, compliance issues, use of force, etc.) If I seemed disrespectful of you or your views, I do apologize. It was certainly not intended. JL
Re: KM Weaknesses?
One thing I’ve found missing from what I have learned in my KM training is offensive techniques. Though Krav is defensive, there are scenarios in which offensive attacks would be useful. For instance, say I am with a friend and we are attacked by two assailants. If I manage to quickly dispatch the one attacking me, I will want to offensively engage the other attacker who is still tied up with my friend. There are things I have learned that I could use in this situation, but my Krav training has never specifically prepared me for it like it has for when I am being attacked myself.
I don’t really see anything in the standard curriculum that directly addresses this. There may be some law enforcement or third party protection techniques, but I don’t have any experience with those programs.
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