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Traditional Christianity, all of the bodies are supposed to be buried East so they can see Jesus coming on his 2nd return…but that was never actually instituted by any religious authority…it was more of a folk practice.
Also relevant to our discussion concerning tattoos…many fundamentalist Christians would say that it is sinful to have tattoos according to some Old Testament passages about marking one’s body.
But being a student of Ancient History, tattoos in the ancient world were more a sign of religious devotion to any number of pagan gods, which was of course forbidden…so it’s not tattoos as such, but anything that could be considered markings of devotion to a deity that is not the Israelite God.
Sorry to go off on a tangent, but the church I attend has its own resident tattoo artist of sorts. He saw the Krav symbol on a t-shirt of mine and thought it was great.
But don’t the souls ascend to heaven and then get to meet Jesus there? And what if he’s coming from the West this time?
\”anything that could be considered markings of devotion to a deity that is not the Israelite God.\”
Would that include portraits of my Krav instructors? 😉
I think he’s referring to how more orthodox Jews are forbidden to get tatoos- that’s their own cultural perspective, not what’s enforced by outsiders (and if you didn’t like a particular group, you usually want them to stand out with tatoos and such). Nothing in Jewish writing says they should live in ghettos- that is the view of outsiders imposing it on them. Referring to Jews like this gets confusing, because the name refers to an ethnic/clutural group and religion. The lines between cultual and religious practices in judaism are hard to distinguish because of their focus on orthopraxy and the focus on this life over the afterlife (at least compared to Christianity).
Yeah, the line in the Old Testament about not getting tattos is right after the line about not shaving. So if you ever have Christian folk get snooty with you about getting a tat, just call them a hypocrit for shaving.
Technically, Jews as a whole are not suppose to be tatted, whether they are religious or not, they are still Jews and therefore are still under Torah law, which has a prohibition against tattoos(Leviticus 19:28). This prohibiiton was desginated as one of many ways for Jews to seperate themselves from the pagans in the land at the time who were fond of cutting themselves and tattooing themselves in their religious rites. It was viewed as part of idol worship, which is an abomination in the Jewish faith.
So this is a Biblical prohibition, not a self-imposed regulation.
The segregation example you gave was dictated by man, whereas Jews believe the Torah and its laws are the Word of G-d.
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There’s a destinction to be made between being jewish in a religious sense as opposed to an ethnic one. Sammy Davis Jr. was a jew by religion. Hence, no tatts for Sammy. On the other hand, a jew by ethnicity alone wouldn’t be expected to hold much value in torah laws.
\”This prohibiiton was desginated as one of many ways for Jews to seperate themselves from the pagans in the land at the time who were fond of cutting themselves and tattooing themselves in their religious rites.\”
Exactly my point regarding jews and the ghettos..meant to draw a line between jew and non-jew. Whether it was done by the jews or to the jews matters little, as the effect desired was one and the same.
Sammy Davis Jr. converted to Judaism, so he could’ve actually had tats prior to his conversion and he probably would’ve been ok. When he converted to Judaism he accepted all 613 laws, not just the ones he liked. So he would’ve been expected not to get tats after his conversion.
I am not sure what secular, or ethnic Jews view, but religious Jews do not make a distinction between religious and non-religious Jews. At least they shouldn’t. I’m sure there are some differences of opinion out there, but by and large, I would speculate that they(orthodox) make no distinction, and therefore they do not make distinctions about which Torah laws apply and which do not. They all apply to all Jews, regardless of how one views ones self.
In parts of New York, and other cities throughout the world, you will have distinct ares of town where people settled; i.e. Chinatown or Little Italy etc. It is no different with Jews. They chose to stay in communities where there values and mores would be honored.
Ghettos on the other hand were forced seperations by governments, usually to horrible parts of town.
Big difference between choosing to seperate and being forced to.
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\”I am not sure what secular, or ethnic Jews view, but religious Jews do not make a distinction between religious and non-religious Jews. At least they shouldn’t. I’m sure there are some differences of opinion out there, but by and large, I would speculate that they(orthodox) make no distinction, and therefore they do not make distinctions about which Torah laws apply and which do not. They all apply to all Jews, regardless of how one views ones self.\”
But there IS a distinction, Bar. One group believes in God, keeps kosher, goes to the temple on saturdays, and so forth. The other, none [or mostly none] of the above. And, of this other group, if any torah laws are observed, it’s commonly by sheer coincidence rather than applied effort.
Incidentally, jewish organizations have been offended by the jehovah witness practice of baptising jews post-mortem. When it comes to entering ‘God’s Kindom’, jehovah witnesses don’t make a distinction between anyone either, including jew or non-jew. So by said logic, I should equally be offended by orthodox jewry and jehovah witnesses, yes? 😆
Not to have a bizarre first post, but on the topic of Kosher…I saw something disturbing at the grocery the other day: Kosher Ramen. From my understanding of the dietary laws, they were passed down with the intent of maintaining healthy, pure bodies. From my understanding of Ramen, people buy it because it’s 10/$1, not for any nutritional value…Kosher Ramen costs as much as healthier fare. Why are there enough people who keep Kosher buying Ramen that a venture like this exists? It’s violating the intent of the law despite following the letter, while violating the spirit of Ramen as poor-college-kid food.
I do not claim to know what secular or ethnic Jews believe as I’m sure there is a wide varying list of what they believe and what they don’t. And I don’t claim to know everything about what orthodox Jews believe.
However, I feel this thread has taken a big turn away from the original topic and I’m sure not too many people are going to be interested in where it goes from here. I would gladly take this offline with you if you are interested. Email me at [email protected]
I will say that I disagree with your logic in your last statement. I fail to see how the pieces of the arguement fit and relate to eachother. If I understand correctly, you are saying that:
1) Jewish orgs. are offended because of what you claim JW’s have done post-mortem
2) Orthodox Jews have a belief(no distinction made between Jews)that they only apply to Jews
3) JW’s make no distinction in regards to that belief or who it applies toyou are saying: Because of 1, you should be equally offended because of 2 and 3?
on a side note: If JW’s make no distinction, then why are they trying to baptize post-mortem?
Tough girl, the dietary laws are not always clearly understood in todays terms. Essentially the Jewish soul is very sensitive and therefore it needs to be nourished by energy that was derived from kosher sources like those described in the Torah. Why certain animals are clean(Tahor) and why some are not clean(Tamey) is something that we can speculate on but we mostly hold that it was a Divine decree that we dont necessarily have to understand. Obviously Ramen wasn’t available when the Torah was given, however the ingredients and method of preparation and packaging are what has afforded it the Kosher label.
Today, there is a lot of different labeling that is used to attract customers. Organic labeling is very common today because people feel it is a healthier solution. Well, some people, even non-Jews, see the kosher label and think that it is healthier for them. There are many Jews who eat kosher chicken for example, yet don’t make an attempt to remove the fat. So although the chicken was slaughtered and prepared in a kosher manner, it doesn’t necessarily mean it is healthy.
Quote \”Why certain animals are clean(Tahor) and why some are not clean(Tamey) is something that we can speculate on but we mostly hold that it was a Divine decree that we dont necessarily have to understand.\”
I read a while back that there was actually alot of modern scientific backing to the ancient Kosher diet. Most of the items on the list can kill you or have very harmful side effects if not prepared properly. For example, pigs – trichnosis and shellfish – severe allergies and death with certain species.
Ill see if I can dig up the article on the internet. It was one of those interesting editorials that gave a little scientific backing to \”divine\” messeges. (Again, definately off the original topic, but interesting none-the-less)
Thanks, Siayn 😀
At least I’m not the only one more easily sidetracked by the Torah than a tattoo.And you, too, Bar-El. I know it’s marketing, but it seems so wrong at a very basic level. Seems that it wouldn’t appeal to people who keep Kosher, but you’re right about people’s laziness, not trimming fat and such.
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