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First, being a good person has nothing to do with religion. I know Muslim Arabs that are better people than some of the observant Jews I have met.
Second, Having a Tattoo does not make you a bad person. I now think that tattooing a jewish symbol on your body is empowering. It is a way to say this is MY body, I am proud of it and I am Jewish. ON Worthiness to be buried in a Jewish cemetary: Many of the Jews I know with tattoos are MORE worthy to be buried in a jewish cemetary than most people.
Kosher Ramen- Google Kosher on the internet and you will find that it is a $50 billion dollar industry in the US alone. More than 45% of all kosher products are purchase by non Jews. Food companies want ANY KIND of kosher certification because it gives the appearance of quality. Walmart is actually the #1 seller of Kosher products in the world. To the person who eats ramen and wants them to be kosher-there was a controversy with Maruchen noodles a year ago when they put a trademarked kosher symbol on their packaging without ever getting a kosher inspection of their facilities. Be assured that once the Kosher symbols are put on the noodles the price will go way up.
I have more to say but, i dont have any more time to write another paragraph.
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Bar, why get hung up about which turn a thread takes? It takes the turn it takes and whoever wants to get back to talking about tattoos, well, they’re free to do so.
In regards to my point with JW…
Practicing jews find it hokey that an outside religious group views them as participants in their religion, irregardless of informed consent. And, so do I view the idea of practicing jews considering me, as a secular jew, bound by their religious laws.I mean, not that I’m in any way bothered by it. Amazon jungle indians may think I should worship their tree gods, and it wouldn’t affect my life one bit either.
Quote \”Second, Having a Tattoo does not make you a bad person. I now think that tattooing a jewish symbol on your body is empowering. It is a way to say this is MY body, I am proud of it and I am Jewish. ON Worthiness to be buried in a Jewish cemetary: Many of the Jews I know with tattoos are MORE worthy to be buried in a jewish cemetary than most people.\”
Yes, but religios beliefs are not about what YOU deem worthy, it is about what the religious laws of that particular belief deem worthy. If you believe and follow Judiasm, then you shouldn’t get a tat. If you dont, then it doesnt matter. Its that simple.
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Yes, but even religious laws and biblical interpretations are all subjective anyways, hence, the various religion offshoots. Just look at christianity for example: catholic, orthodox, baptist, presbyterian, on and on.
I think there have been a lot of good points made by these posts.
Of course there will be good and bad apples in every group of people regardless of religious observance. It happens, we are not perfect.
I was trying to address the Jewish halacha(kosher laws) on tattooing. I never meant to suggest that someone was a bad person if they had a tat.
I was pointing out that it was against the tenants of Judaism(for Jews), whether or not you are an observant Jew. A Jewish soul is a Jewish soul, regardless of observance levels.Most religious people do not believe that the religious laws and bibilical interpretations are as subjective as some may think. Although there are different offshoots and customs, there is a core that most all observe. No one is going to hold you down and force you to believe, at least not that I know of in the Jewish community. And since you know Krav they would probably have a hard time holding you down.
The price of products does not necessarily go way up when a kosher label is acquired. Many products may have been kosher to begin with, but never had the inspection. Although in some cases I’m sure a processing plant has had to re-tool their operations if they were applying for a kosher cert. This of course will cause prices to rise because all corporations, not just those making kosher products, pass on their costs to their customers. From your words its almost like you are suggesting there is a \”kosher tax\”.
It is not that simple:
Appearances does not make you a good jew. I can’t tell you how many Hasidim I saw enjoying the sins in the Times Square area in NY. In addition no one ever talks about the constant sexual harassment and treating women as second class citizens by the observant Jewish community. Read some of the Jewish women’s magazines and you will be amazed at how \”good jewish boys\” aren’t really so good. Sounds as if the jewish community has the same issues as the religious Islamic and Christian communities.
I was happy to find so many secular jews in Isreal. Real jews who were not observant but believed in Judaism. Real people with real jobs. It is okay to be a laborer and be jewish. it is okay to be a carpenter and not a doctor. It is okay to have a tattoo or nose ring.
Finally, if it okay for a jew with a tattoo to serve in the IDF and die then what is the excuse that so many orthodox and ultra orthodox do not serve their mandatory military service in Israel?Who said the appearance of observance was the same as actually being observant? Like I said there are bad and good people in all groups. It doesn’t mean that we dismiss the whole(the baby with the bathwater?)
And yes, I’m sure there are instances of treating women, and probably non-Jews or Jews who are not as observant, as second class citizens. That is not in the good faith of Judaism. But we can’t make blanket generalizations, good or bad, about the orthodox community either.
Orthodox do serve in the IDF in the Chaplains Corp & Burial teams. They have started to serve in combat units as well. In 1948 they served in any capacity because the fledgling state did not have the numbers necessary to fend off the enemy. Today, there are plenty of people to physically defend the state. The orthodox also serve in the spiritual army, which I believe is becoming a more important component.
Yes, there are good and bad apples in every bunch.
\”I was trying to address the Jewish halacha(kosher laws) on tattooing. I never meant to suggest that someone was a bad person if they had a tat.
I was pointing out that it was against the tenants of Judaism(for Jews), whether or not you are an observant Jew. A Jewish soul is a Jewish soul, regardless of observance levels.\”Ahh, well there it is! See, I say there’s no such thing as a jewish soul any more than a russian soul or a black soul. All there is is cultural indoctrination.
Take a jewish child from birth and place him in the care of a north-pole indigenous tribe, he’ll have an ‘eskimo soul’.
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quote \”Bar-El\:Orthodox do serve in the IDF in the Chaplains Corp & Burial teams. They have started to serve in combat units as well. In 1948 they served in any capacity because the fledgling state did not have the numbers necessary to fend off the enemy. Today, there are plenty of people to physically defend the state. The orthodox also serve in the spiritual army, which I believe is becoming a more important component.Sounds like an excuse to put Jews into \”classes\” with the value of a non observant jew being of less value than an observant male jew.
quote :\”Take a jewish child from birth and place him in the care of a north-pole indigent tribe, he’ll have an ‘eskimo soul’.\”This is not a belief held by Jews. The soul would still be that of a Jew.
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Ah, but a jewish child raised as an eskimo would have no such belief. He would likely have the beliefs of an eskimo, whatever those may be.
Of course, this lead to…who’s beliefs are legitimate? Are you gonna say that judaism has more claim on reality than tribal religions of northern indians?
I agree that the child would have the beliefs, values and mores of an eskimo, however you do not know how the soul will manifest itself.
I have read several personal accounts of people who never knew they were Jewish for one reason or another. Later they decided to come into the faith only to find out that they were already part of the Jewish people.
In the past few months many people have emigrated from India to Israel because they are believed to be one of the lost tribes, B’Nei Menasseh. They have held traditional Jewish customs and values for centuries, yet lived in India and also had customs and values specific to that part of India. The rabbis have been going through a process of analysis and have made a symbolic conversion for these people. Similiar events occur in Ethiopia.
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quote \”Bar-El\:I have read several personal accounts of people who never knew they were Jewish for one reason or another. Later they decided to come into the faith only to find out that they were already part of the Jewish people.I have read personal accounts of people being being abducted by aliens. Or, encountering ghosts. Children often recite personal accounts of seeing the bogey man in their closet. You know, personal accounts are, well, personal…not necessarily rooted in the universal.
As for indo-jews, that’s entirely plausable. There are ancient jewish communities in central asia, so why not farther southeast?
Correct, that personal accounts are subjective. I was wrong to use that as a point.
In Chassidic Judaism there is a belief that there are two souls: An animal soul and a G-dly soul.
From the Chabad website: \”The Animal Soul is driven by the quest for self-preservation and self-enhancement.\”To relate this to your comments, I would say that alien abductions, ghosts and bogey men are all manifestations of the animal soul relating to the physical world.
more from Chabad website: \”But we also possess a G-dly Soul\”–a soul driven by the desire to reconnect with its Source.\”
This Source is the Creator, something that is not physically tangible, much like the soul is not something that is tangible. So a Jewish baby raised by eskimos would still have a desire to reconnect to the Source, in this case, Judaism.
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