@djinsd
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Kamida, I certainly agree with you that \”submission\” are meant to be used as destruction techniques. However, I’ve seen many instances, both in sport fighting (including grappling tournaments) as well as real fights where a limb was broken, dislocated or other wise \”messed up\” and the combatant continued to fight viciously. My point is that I don’t necessarily believe that dislocating someone’s elbow will stop the fight quicker than taking the same amount of time beating them in vital areas.
Please note that I am not saying your wrong, nor am I saying that grappling skills are only minimally important. I have trained in Judo and Jiu Jitsu for over ten years and think those skills are important to have in your tool box.
I think most Krav instructors come across that way based on the amount of training it takes to pull off a damaging submission technique without putting yourself in a bad position, versus learning how to do combatives in the same situation. Also, some people have this concern that if they teach a significant amount of groundfighting, then the students might be predisposed to take that route rather than the more pragmatic \”destroy and disengage\” route. I have seen instructors who have this exact problem while they are teaching \”self defense\” programs when they don’t put technique into context of the larger issue of self protection.
DJ
To handle the aggresive retaliation, just tell him to let you punch in the face for real and see how that can change that dynamic.
For him pulling the gun back, that is expected in the technique and is why Krav advocates getting some of your weight on the weapon (if he’s in front of you) and driving into him or stepping in deep (if he’s behind you).
Hope this helps,
DJ
A bit off topic…..
The reason Polar bears never eat penguins is because polar bears live in the northern hemisphere and penguins live in the southern hemisphere. 😀
Sorry guys, just trying to lighten things up…….
DJ
Damn, you guys are making me feel old. Not only did I see Weird Science when it \”debuted\” but I was the target audience. 🙁 (I did love that movie back then though)
DJ
Ok Jeff, I do agree that it is more important that a student be aggresive in his or her defense rather than having good technique if the student is passive. I have had several students whose technique is good but they don’t have the intensity that I would like. If that’s the case, I focus more on bringing the intensity up rather than further refining technique. The technique won’t do a lot of good if the commitment is not there behind it. I think one of the things that makes Krav Maga \”popular\” is the focus on mindset and intensity as it relates to self protection. I tell the students that I work with that \”technique\” is probably less than 20% of the equation when it comes to successfully defending one’s self. Commitment to defending one’s self (agression is often a deciding factor). I’ve seen completely unskilled (no technique) completely overwhelm an attacker and I’ve seen skilled (good technique) practitioners get \”their clocks cleaned\” by aggresive oppenents, in and out of the ring.
Just my thoughts,
DJ
Well, I don’t really have classmates as I’m the chief instructor, but I’m getting a better idea of the technique you are describing. I think the reason I’m finding this difficult to visualize is because I usually have the students that are attacking pull the victim back towards him/herself as well as choke/headlock them. That would make the step forward that you are describing much more difficult but does not really impede the \”back\” step of the original technique. I guess if the attacker did not pull the victim towards him/herself as they performed the headlock, then I can see stepping away from them as being a viable alternative but I’ve never really had a problem with the original technique since you can easily do the standard headlock escape if you get \”stuck\”. If it works for you then, by all means, keep doing it.
DJ
That’s one of the reasons that I am not terribly fond of the workshop style. If someone does the workshop and feels that they \”have it\” that can be worse than not having trained at all. I think workshops are great for addressing a specific topic and delving more into it but I believe it’s better to train consistently if even for a few months than to take large breaks in between workshops, but that’s just me.
DJ
What kind of training program to the women do in between workshops so they can retain the training? Assuming that they aren’t class assistants that is.
DJ
At what point are you extricating your head from the hold? Are you just assuming that the grip will be loosened enough to do what you are describing? An elbow to the solar plexus needs a bit of distance to have any effect. I don’t see how you could possibly elbow them in the chin with your left elbow if they don’t let go. The thing that I like about the Krav defense that we use is that it does not assume that the attacker is going to let go. When we do the pluck (and we often aim for the eyes on the pluck, much to the peril of the attacking student if he/she is not paying attention), all we need is just enough space to slide the head out. Again, I’ll try it in class tonight but I’m not seeing this as a good option since it seems to rely on your attacker giving up his/her grip (which may certainly happen, but I don’t want to plan on that).
DJ
Re:
quote \”KravMDjeff\:So, John, would the 1-handed pluck be a good alternative if the simultaneous counterattack can’t be delivered with the front kick to the groin (for instance, if the guy who’s choking you is standing over a counter-top or some other obstacle that prohibits kicking)…Because, if it’s simply an equally good alternative, then doesn’t it just increase response time if someone were to find themselves choosing to do one over the other?
A different way to ask the same question is this-all other things being equal, which one fits more into the principles of Krav? Is there any evidence about a 2-hand pluck vs. a 1-hand pluck being more or less effective against an opponent who is muuch bigger, or any other factors like that?
I think the preference of the two hand choke lies in the body’s reaction to a a choke threat, sending both hands to the source of the attack.
DJ
RE: headlock from rear. Assuming the arm that is encircling your throat is the attackers right arm, do you mean that you are elbowing them with your right arm after you turn? I’m having a tough time visualizing that being easy. I could certainly see a groin strike with the right hand being feasible but I’m not seeing an elbow work as well. Perhaps I just have to see it plus I’d rather go the the dead side anyway. I’ll have to try that tomorrow when we have class………
DJ
A great deal of the success of an individual in class really depend upon his/her motivation (kind going back to the beginning of this thread). If a student comes to Krav class for the social time or for the fitness, then it’s entirely possible that the \”self defense\” skill of that person will never \”cut it\” on an exam. We often teach techniques from higher levels in our level one class because many of them are \”easy\” and I like the students to see what lies ahead. One of the main reasons, at our school at least, that I don’t allow students to attend the advanced classes unless they pass the test is that our drills and training are significantly more intense in there. If someone is unwilling/unable to handle the test, it’s highly unlikely that that individual is going to enjoy or benefit from the advanced classes.
Not every school is run this way. I know there are schools whose level 1 classes are often a test in nausea repression. There are other schools who also don’t regularly physically challenge their level one students.
Bottom line is, if the student wants to competent in self defense, the student will be……
Take care,
DJ
Wow, some of the pessimism here is really sad. I’ve had \”housewives\” in class that were extremely weak, uncoordinated and totally unathletic but were able to execute Krav Maga defenses against aggresive attackers. It might take longer to get to that level but it can be, and is being, done. I have taken several KM tests and I like the fact that I’m dog-assed tired but can still pull off the defenses. If you’ve never been in an altercation, perhaps it would be easy to under-estimate the fatique factor (I’m not saying that anyone here hasn’t been attacked, I don’t know). After a few seconds of full contact (whether it’s training or on the \”street\”), it’s easy to reach exhaustion.
As for what classes would be like if level one were to be mostly technique, it would be very much like a Traditional martial arts class in street clothes. The thing I like BEST about KM is the training methodology. The techniques are great, don’t get me wrong, but if more schools taught self defense like KM does, then their \”techniques\” would be much more useful. I believe attributes (like aggressiveness, intensity etc.) are FAR more important to saving one’s life then the specific technique. I’m not suggesting that we shouldn’t work on techniques and turn every class into an hour long stress drill.
That’s my, very opinionated, take on that. I hope I didn’t offend anyone.
Train hard,
DJ
Re:
quote :I agree with saying that she punches wrong. Since I come from a Traditional Karate background and was taught to punch with the first two knuckles. And now train Krav and have learned that if you punch with only the first two knuckels it puts your wrist in an awkward position. If you straighten the wrist to align correctly and be a straight line you actually punch more with the last two knuckles. With that being said, I still use my first two, cuz after 10 years of karate, old habits are hard to break.. 😯Whoa, whoa, whoa! Did I miss the part of training that had us punching with the last two knuckles? When we do punching, we primarily aim to strike with middle knuckle, which by default usually involves the index knuckle. I’ve NEVER trained in any system that advocated striking with the ring and pinky knuckles. It is possible that in my 4 1/2 years of teaching Krav that I’ve been doing and teaching it wrong, but that’s also the way I was taught in boxing, kickboxing and Muay Thai.
DJ (extending his arm to check the alignment of radius, ulna and knuckles)
Way to go…..
Speaking of hijack………..Christian, you never replied to my last email. 😕
On topic however, I’m glad to see this story. I did PKA style kickboxing back in the day (last fight 1993) and I’ve been wondering if I’m too old to get back into the full contact arena (I turn 35 next Saturday). After talking to Bas Rutten after a seminar at Alan Predolin’s school recently and working out with some good MMA guys in Salt Lake, I’m considering doing some fights just for a personal challenge. So, I want to thank Ro as another inspiration to get my butt into a ring, cage, octogan, whatever……..
Congrats on your win,
DJ
