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Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
How realistic is it that I would pull out my concealed pistol ready it and confront a guy with an assault rifle? Maybe when he stops to reload? Maybe if his back is to me and I’m close enough to be sure of multiple hits? Not me I think. Given either opportunity I’m getting the f— up out of there!
What if I was trapped, and I was presented with one of those opportunities? Would I pull my gun then, or would I rush him and put my KM to work or maybe my knife (which I can deploy much faster than a pistol)? I think I would prefer to be in close where he can’t bring his long rifle to bare.
However, I would still like to have the option of using my pistol and would carry it regardless of any silly sign that’s not backed up by metal detectors and guards – well at least here in Texas anyway.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
The choice to pull your gun and move forward or find a place to hide would be the difference between being a sheep or a sheepdog. The sheepdog really doesn’t see a choice.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote antonyhewitt:How realistic is it that I would pull out my concealed pistol ready it and confront a guy with an assault rifle? Maybe when he stops to reload? Maybe if his back is to me and Iím close enough to be sure of multiple hits? Not me I think. Given either opportunity Iím getting the f— up out of there!What if I was trapped, and I was presented with one of those opportunities? Would I pull my gun then, or would I rush him and put my KM to work or maybe my knife (which I can deploy much faster than a pistol)? I think I would prefer to be in close where he canít bring his long rifle to bare.
However, I would still like to have the option of using my pistol and would carry it regardless of any silly sign thatís not backed up by metal detectors and guards ñ well at least here in Texas anyway.
Hi Antony!:wav:
Welcome to the forum:D:
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote garddawg:The choice to pull your gun and move forward or find a place to hide would be the difference between being a sheep or a sheepdog. The sheepdog really doesn’t see a choice.I think the sheepdog or sheep analogy is too simple. There are those who have devoted there lives to protecting the flock and they train and live it 24/7 – the sheepdogs I guess? (Thank you – if your one of them garddawg). And there are those who just cower hopelessly or run away mindlessly when the wolf attacks – the sheep I guess. However, I think there is a third type, who trains in self-defense as a form of ìinsuranceî to fall back on as a last resort. Perhaps like a bear, to continue this animal analogy. Bears generally just want to go about their business – unless theyíre cornered. Thereís a reason why wolves donít attack bears in the wild.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote antonyhewitt:Perhaps like a bear, to continue this animal analogy. Bears generally just want to go about their business – unless they’re cornered.The exception in this analogy is when there is something the bear wants to protect (their young or their “territory”).
Some examples:
quote :On 12 June 1973, a wolf approached to within 5 m of a tree in which a bear had left her cubs while she fed in a garbage pit 25 m away. The mother immediately ran from the pit and closely pursued the wolf for 30 to 50 m.On 16 June 1972, a radio-tagged, 11-year-old female bear was observed from the air as she walked toward an adult wolf lying in a grassy opening. The bear was in her territory, and the wolf was less than 100 m from an area of well-worn beaver (Castor canadensis) trails that wolves frequented. With approximately 30 m separating the two animals, the bear suddenly ran toward the wolf, which sprang up and was pursued vigorously in circles and zig-zags for approximately 25 s before it escaped into dense streamside brush.
Source: http://www.bear.org/Black/Articles/Interaction_of_Wolves_and_Black.html
The problem with the animal analogy is they don’t recognize the sanctity of life, nor the victimization of innocent civilians in a shooting rampage. Granted, a lot of people would opt for self-preservation in the face of danger…. and I feel it would be wrong to judge those who do flee. That is their right.
Personally, I couldn’t run away if I knew I was the closest thing to a sheepdog the flock had when the wolf shows up.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
vwr32 – cool bear stories. I would consider defending family and home as being “cornered”.
But I can’t see my self being in that mall and turning to my wife and kids and saying, “Wait here I’m going to go and take that guy out.” What would happen to them if I wound up a dead dog.
Well I’ll try to bring this thread back to “situational awareness” now:
I think it’s a useful exercise to think about these things, and what I would do in such a situation. The next time I’m in my local mall I’ll be thinking about what would make the best cover, what are the distances between cover. If cornered, would I be close enough to rush that guy. Or is it likely I’ll be to far, leaving a gun as the only real option if escape isn’t possible.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
Damn, vw, where do you so readily find all of these quotes? A bear cornering a wolf in 1972? rofl2 Mr research! thumbsup
Anyway, ideally, I think security guards should do more than ogle girls and rather watch the place for potential threats, carry guns and know (and have the courage to) use them if necessary. Now, that’s probably not the case in real life, but something to be aiming for.
Off duty police officers carrying guns is good too, because they probably better know how to deal with that type of situation and (hopefully) are relatively good shots.
Civilians having guns could work, under some circumstances. If it’s just one civilian with a gun it would probably be okay, but what if there are several? That’s where confusion might come in, no one knows who the initial shooter was, or people trying to shoot from different angles, at different people.
I went to the shooting range several times and learned how hard it is to actually hit something with a handgun, even if you have all the time in the world to get off a good shot. Under stress, it would be that much harder to hit something, even from a relatively close distance (20 feet, or maybe closer), so if too many people start shooting all at once without having a clear, close shot, or even knowing exactly who the actual bad guy is, bullets may be missing their intended target and more people may get shot.
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GiantkillerRe: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
I definately understand what Antony and GK are getting at. There are definately some people who would not and should not engage an armed attacker with a firearm. I think that anyone who carries a concealed weapon NEEDS to be proficient in using it. By proficient, I don’t mean that they know how to load, unload, correct a malfunction, and propperly fire the weapon. I think that a concealed carry permit should be obtained only after the person applying for the permit has demonstrated not just technical proficiency, but tactical proficiency as well. If you haven’t completed some form of stress shoot and you’re not trained up in target discrimination, and shooting while moving, you shouldn’t have a weapon on you while you’re in public anyways.
One of the problems I see with getting out of dodge when the rounds start coming at you is that you don’t know what that shooter is doing. If they are plinking off rounds at people on one end of the mall, most people will high tail it in the opposite direction. The problem with this is that it can be what is called a baited ambush… Basicly causing everyone to flock into a worse attack (explosive device, more shooters, etc etc). Though I haven’t heard of any examples in the US of this happening, it is a common tactic used by terrorists overseas and could EASILY be implimented here. If I have a firearm, and someone is going postal, I’m going to maneuver on the bastard and engage and hope that he isn’t as good as me. The same can be done if you can get in close with the attacker for an unarmed or knife attack. Neutralizing the threat as quickly as possible can in some cases be FAR safer than running in the other direction.
I like what Antony was saying about looking around for cover and thinking about what you would do in certain situations. It seems like paranoia until you find yourself in a crappy situation. I took an evasive convoy driving course last year and one of the main things that they taught was that you should never be just driving. You should always have a plan to escape if a car pulls out in front of you, tries to box you in, tries to cut into your convoy, or if anything else unforseen happens. I think it’s a great idea to be constantly prepared to conduct whatever form of emergency procedure would be appropriate for you at a moment’s notice, whether it’s defensive, offencive, or otherwise.
Great points on all sides! I really like how many good ideas are coming out of this discussion!
J-
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
I try to train myself in situational awareness just walking down the street sometimes. Instead of daydreaming, I try to see everything, use my peripheral vision etc. Identify people around me, see their height, build etc, determine whether I can see their hands clearly, imagine how I would react if they suddenly charged me or approached me in a threatening way. May seem weird to some people, but it’s a really good exercise.
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GiantkillerRe: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Giant Killer:Damn, vw, where do you so readily find all of these quotes? A bear cornering a wolf in 1972? rofl2 Mr research! thumbsupI went to the shooting range several times and learned how hard it is to actually hit something with a handgun, even if you have all the time in the world to get off a good shot. Under stress, it would be that much harder to hit something, even from a relatively close distance (20 feet, or maybe closer), so if too many people start shooting all at once without having a clear, close shot, or even knowing exactly who the actual bad guy is, bullets may be missing their intended target and more people may get shot.
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GiantkillerThe internet is a wonderful thing for research lol… I’m surprised at what is available too.
I still think the possibility of accidental shootings would not exceed the planned number of deaths dealt out by the bad guy. But I’m coming from the position where those returning fire are proficient with a weapon and fire only on a target known to be a bad guy. Agreed, not *everyone* should just open fire at the first sign of trouble.
quote antonyhewitt:vwr32 – cool bear stories. I would consider defending family and home as being “cornered”.But I can’t see my self being in that mall and turning to my wife and kids and saying, “Wait here I’m going to go and take that guy out.” What would happen to them if I wound up a dead dog.
Really??? I mean, think about it. You’re saying you’d fight for *your* family, but not someone else’s? I’m sure they have loved ones who want them to come home safely too. If your family was unfortunate enough to end up in a bad situation when you weren’t around, wouldn’t you HOPE someone with a gun would intervene and increase their odds of staying alive? Could you really just turn and run if you had a gun and happened to be the best chances to provide survival for the people you’re leaving behind?
I know you’re saying you’d protect yourself for the sake of your family, and that’s admirable in and of itself. But I’d also be willing to bet if you actually found yourself in that situation, you might act differently. To each his own tho, I only have to live with my decisions… or lack thereof.
quote downforlife76:I like what Antony was saying about looking around for cover and thinking about what you would do in certain situations. It seems like paranoia until you find yourself in a crappy situation. I took an evasive convoy driving course last year and one of the main things that they taught was that you should never be just driving. You should always have a plan to escape if a car pulls out in front of you, tries to box you in, tries to cut into your convoy, or if anything else unforseen happens.Agreed. People take defensive driving for granted, assuming the car next to them is just as interested in avoiding an accident as they are. The likelihood of being ambushed in a convoy probably isn’t high on most people’s list. But situational awareness isn’t confined to watching for mad gunmen in the mall or disgruntled coworkers…. consider the following from the FBI:
quote :This particular scam is called the ìswoop and squat.î (The first car ìswoopsî in while the second car ìsquatsî in front of you.) After the ìaccident,î everyone in the car you rear-endedóusually crammed full of passengersówill file bogus injury claims with your insurance company. Each will complain of whiplash or other soft-tissue injuriesóthings difficult for doctors to confirm. They may even go to crooked physical therapists, chiropractors, lawyers, or auto repair technicians to further exaggerate their claims.Weíre talking big money here. Staged accidents cost the insurance industry about $20 billion a year. Those losses get passed on to all of us in the form of higher insurance ratesóan average of $100-$300 extra per car per year.
Here are some similar scams to look out for:
The drive down. Youíre attempting to merge when another driver waves you forward. Instead of letting you in, he slams into your car. When the police arrive, he denies ever motioning to you.
The sideswipe. As you round a corner at a busy intersection with multiple turn lanes, you drift slightly into the lane next to you. The car in that lane steps on the gas and sideswipes you.
The t-bone. Youíre crossing an intersection when a car coming from a side street accelerates and hits your car. When the police arrive, the driver and several planted ìwitnessesî claim that you ran a red light or stop sign.
Source: http://www.fbi.gov/page2/feb05/stagedauto021805.htmSituational awareness isn’t only useful to id the bad guys or reserved for paranoid folks. It’s also how we find out the guy in the lane next to us wants to merge, the woman carrying a toddler and groceries needs help with a door, or any number of other things that go unnoticed by those people who wander around in their own private universe.
Last night I stopped a woman as she was about to leave her keys on a display case at Target. She had been talking to the clerk while I was shopping for memory cards. The keys were in a sort of obscure location, and could have easily belonged to the clerks. Something about them simply didn’t look like “store” keys so I pointed them out to her and asked if they were hers. They were, and she was quite grateful.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
GK… I’m really glad I’m not the only one that anylizes stuff like that when I’m walking down the street. :woohoo: I was worried that everyone else was thinking about stuff like how they were going to justify their purchaces to their signifigant other or pretty flowers or some stupid crap like that!
J-
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Giant Killer:I try to train myself in situational awareness just walking down the street sometimes. Instead of daydreaming, I try to see everything, use my peripheral vision etc. Identify people around me, see their height, build etc, determine whether I can see their hands clearly, imagine how I would react if they suddenly charged me or approached me in a threatening way. May seem weird to some people, but it’s a really good exercise._________________
GiantkillerOh geez, I used to do that but stopped, thinking I was SO overdoing it. Maybe not:D:
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
quote Giant Killer:I try to train myself in situational awareness just walking down the street sometimes. Instead of daydreaming, I try to see everything, use my peripheral vision etc. Identify people around me, see their height, build etc, determine whether I can see their hands clearly, imagine how I would react if they suddenly charged me or approached me in a threatening way. May seem weird to some people, but it’s a really good exercise._________________
GiantkillerHeh I still get ridiculed by my girlfirend for this level of observance with my surroundings. I will go so far as to know weakpoints of people around me(are they limping, favoring a knee etc.) just in case there is some sort of issue. While this is old military training at work, it is a habit that has saved me and my girlfriend a couple of times. Case in point, we were driving into a cell phone place to exchange phones and 2 guys with their son in a car seat fly into the parking spot next to us. My girlfriend stopped opening her door in time and waved the guy in. He slammed on the brakes when he saw her wave then drove in to park. She got out first, and the driver gets out and starts yelling at her, cussing, etc. I get out of the car and tell him to leave her alone and calm down. She was trying to be polite. Driver is out of the car and his buddy gets out. The driver is about 6’2″ 250-300 lbs and 15-20 years older than I am, is wheezing(smoker)and is limping on his right side(I figure bad knee or ankle). The passenger gets out and has a cane on his left side(bad left knee). I move in between them and my g/f and tell her to go inside(which she does). The big guy comes up to me(I tell him I do not want trouble, to back up and go on his merry way). He starts cussing at me while I am moving away slowly. His friend is now beside him and I tell them look. “both of you have bad knees and are not in shape, I am younger, in shape, and trained to defend myself..lets just move along” They both look at me and the big guy says “fine, just tell your g/f not to be a B next time”. I shake my head and move away..situation defused.
10 minutes later in the store the big guy walks up and apologizes and asks how I knew he had a bad knee. I chuckled and said “military training”. He said well I was gonna knock you on your ass but when you mentioned that I had the idea I wouldn’t win the fight”.
Observation saved a bad situation without violence.
Always know your exits and size up those around you..it will save ya someday.
Re: Best way to win a fight..situational awareness
Raneman, that’s a great story; I hope I would handle that situation just like that. Your g/f may make fun of you, but I bet she was proud of you that day.
It’s not paranoid to think about and prepare for bad things that could happen, its called insurance.
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