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Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
quote FearTheFighter:This sounds like a fantasy. You pull a rubber knife out and stab me in a gym, I’ll just laugh too and say “good one”. Obviously you were sparring in a friendly manner in a KM class so he wasn’t trying to KO you while standup with 100% powered punches and kicks. On the street, he would. Why would he take you down for? MMA implies that he’s able to trade standup also. And why can’t MMA fighters have knives and guns? I carry 2 knives and a 9mm where they’re legal.He said the MMA guy wanted to “test” Krav. He could have tested his stand up against it, but decided to take him down, so that’s the result of the test. We do this drill frequently where you’ll have people rolling and the instructor will throw a knife nearby and have the two fight for control of the knife… not a good situation to be in if you’re on the bottom, either mounted or they’re in your guard.
The point is, this MMA practitioner cried that it “wasn’t fair.” Yes, MMA fighters can carry knives and guns but than in that situation it’s who can utilize their tools the quickest. If an MMA guy trains for that on his own, great! But most likely the MMA gym is not going to waste time teaching these types of scenarios because it doesn’t apply to them (competition). Also keep in mind other variables like stress/adrenaline, loss of motor functions due to the stress, your knife/gun cannot be deployed because it’s trapped/blocked. Krav trains to help deal with these variables with stress drills (tire you out then do the drills).
quote FearTheFighter:First, you need to know the many reasons why this is so.1. When fighting in a competition, if you get kicked in the balls or poked in the eye, it’s in the interest of the Fighter to make a big scene out of it whether he was hurt a lot, a little or not much at all. (A) It solicits sympathy from the Referee, the judges and the audience. The Ref can issue a warning, then take away a point, then DQ the other fighter. Psychologically alone, this can wreck the other Fighter or at least take away his strikes that gets too close to the groin (inside leg kick, mid knees, etc.)…because now he’s scared of losing a point, which is HUGE for a 3-5 round fight.
2. Competition Fights can be for $0 to $1,000,000 or more. Then there’s the backend PPV deals, fight bonuses, product endorsements, etc. totaling posibilities of MILLIONS of dollars more. Losses can also make or break fighters who are hanging on a shoe string, etc. Even fighting for $0 in the lowest amateur competition, who’d want to risk a loss on their record because they let the other guy slide on an illegal groin kick that does indeed, hurt. So imagine MULTI million dollar fights in the UFC.
3. No doubt that a serious eye poke can incapacitate a fighter. Like when Vitor Belfort cut Randy Couture’s eyes up with his gloves and got the win. If Couture continued to fight, it would have been a massacre due to this being freakin’ Belfort and not some slob on the street. Why would Couture take such a chance at getting beat down bloody on live PPV and be the highlight reel for the next 20+ years? But do you really think a PRO fighter of Couture’s caliber would wimp up into the fetal position and cry if this same eye gouge happened in the street? First off, you’re not even going to get close to an experienced, LOW LEVEL amateur fighter in the streets with your Krav Maga eye strikes without getting KO’ed first (unless it was a suckerpunching eye-strike), let alone someone like Couture. You’re going to get knocked out. We worry about accidental eye gouges all the time while sparring with MMA gloves. What’s the difference between a 2-finger eye strike coming towards my eyes at full speed/power vs. a full fist heading towards my face during sparring or fighting in the cage? NOTHING really, I treat them both the same way by trying to not get hit by them. Who’s going to be better at doing this….someone who fights for a living or someone who doesn’t? And guess who’s going to be more deadly at returns and counters after evading this eye strike?
Same with groin strikes. The Muay Thai Inside Leg Kick is a probing jabbing kick that lands inches from the groin and knee and is thrown often to gauge. Fighters worry about getting hit in the nuts & knee all the time from this. Anytime that a kick comes low, we address it. Same goes for knees. The Muay Thai cross shield blocks all of this, and now here comes the return for that KO. Who’s going to be better at kneeing and front kicks for speed, power and accuracy. It’s a lot harder to not kick someone in the nuts nor knees while aiming for the inside thigh only. Imagine how easy this would be for a Fighter should there be no rules on the streets.
During sparring, most KM only people can’t even get pass my jabs without getting lit up (one guy said he had 10+ years of KM). You think you can just walk up to a Fighter and eye poke him or kick him in the nuts and it’s over? Once you’re in range to do that, punches and kicks are flying towards you. Now the KM’s who do spar hard and some do fight MMA and other full contact competitions, those are the legit ones.
I agree with you on most of your points regarding competition fights The fighters also like using illegal hits as a chance to get some rest while the ref chews out the other fighter.
Groin kicks are not the end all be all, we (Krav practitioners) know this. They can be quite debilitating but we train to follow up groin kick with punches, knees and elbows. I don’t think I’ve ever trained with an instructor who was happy that I just did one hit to the pad or to someone putting me in a choke, headlock, bearhug, etc.
Eye strikes are really hard to pull off in a dynamic environment because the eyes are small targets and we are taught not to lead with an eye strike as you’ll probably miss.
I can understand why there is so much bad blood between MMA and Krav (which is a mixed martial art…) and I think it comes down to how we train aliveness (sparring). Thankfully, where I train at there is aliveness every time I train.
All in all, your points are moot because your argument makes it seem like we train just for the single kick to the groin, or a single (2?) pokes to the eyes and the fight is over. We don’t, we train to follow up with different combatives until the threat is neutralized (either knocked out or doesn’t want to fight anymore because they’re curled up into the fetal position). It takes training to get the mental and physical grit to keep going when all your body wants to do is stop.
You stated that you’ve sparred KM practitioners before, where at?
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
I think your points are valid in terms of fighter’s reactions to groin strikes/eye pokes. Makes sense. But I think your post also highlights some of the misconceptions that many people have about KM and my reason for the post.
Eye pokes and groin strikes are just additional targets. One’s that MMA don’t have. Can an MMA guy do them in the street? Absolutely. But we just add them into our strikes where MMA cannot. We also allow strikes to the throat and the base of the skull. Headbutts and finger joint manipulation. Pulling the hair. Hitting them with a chair or frying pan. Whatever it takes to get you home safe.
Just think about how different it would be if you’re caught in a choke and the defense isn’t there…and you’re able to ram your thumb into the attacker’s eye and take that puppy out. May work. May not. But going to sleep is just going to get you killed.
Btw. Thanks for posting an MMA perspective.
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
quote MadDogMean:Eye pokes and groin strikes are just additional targets. One’s that MMA don’t have. Can an MMA guy do them in the street? Absolutely. But we just add them into our strikes where MMA cannot. We also allow strikes to the throat and the base of the skull. Headbutts and finger joint manipulation. Pulling the hair. Hitting them with a chair or frying pan. Whatever it takes to get you home safe.Just think about how different it would be if you’re caught in a choke and the defense isn’t there…and you’re able to ram your thumb into the attacker’s eye and take that puppy out. May work. May not. But going to sleep is just going to get you killed.
Btw. Thanks for posting an MMA perspective.
You make good points. And I have trained Krav before and looking to get back into it. I was mostly interested in the weapons portion of it. I liked the sparring vs. multiple opponents too. The main weakness of Krav is that a lot of these illegal MMA strikes are only simulated. While MMA, during hard sparring, we are really trying to knock each other out. A fighter’s face and the rest of our body have felt what it’s like to get the crap beaten out of it, yet continue to fight….over and over and over, because that’s just what a fighter does. To get brutally pummeled by someone much better and still getting up for some more beating until you get KO’ed is something most fighters have been through. This can’t be taught. In a streetfight, I doubt that an MMA fighter would care about what strikes are illegal in MMA….eye gouging, nut strikes, etc. wouldn’t be a problem.
But Krav is still a good system, just that in my opinion, it’s many levels below full training to fight in the ring or cage. Training to be a fighter is the highest level of hand to hand combat, which would cover self defense also. Although MMA completely lacks gun defense, this is where I look to Krav for. While vs. Knife, I have a different theory.
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
quote KMyoshi:He said the MMA guy wanted to “test” Krav. He could have tested his stand up against it, but decided to take him down, so that’s the result of the test.I don’t think there’s any “test” that your instructor would allow the MMA guy to throw full strikes for the KO while standing. Since it was friendly, the MMA probably decided to just take the KM down and go for a submission. I mean, it was a rubber knife, so go ahead and keep stabbing… the MMA should have just continued with his submission attempt. I don’t think this “test” proved anything. In the streets, I would rely on my standup, mostly my Boxing.
quote :Also keep in mind other variables like stress/adrenaline, loss of motor functions due to the stress, your knife/gun cannot be deployed because it’s trapped/blocked. Krav trains to help deal with these variables with stress drills (tire you out then do the drills).MMA trains this too. Nothing worse than gassing out during sparring or a fight and lose. Trained fighters are very calm and this wouldn’t change in the street.
quote :I can understand why there is so much bad blood between MMA and Krav (which is a mixed martial art…) and I think it comes down to how we train aliveness (sparring). Thankfully, where I train at there is aliveness every time I train.I think the main bad blood is when KM claims that MMA is merely a sport and it’s not real. IMO, KO’ing someone with one punch is as real as it gets. Putting my foot though someone’s head, trying to KO them is just as real as it gets. After he’s KO’ed, the fighter can stop there and go home or stay and kill him, then go to jail for life. All of this gets tested when you spar hard (although not completely conclusive, but pretty well enough).
quote :All in all, your points are moot because your argument makes it seem like we train just for the single kick to the groin, or a single (2?) pokes to the eyes and the fight is over. We don’t, we train to follow up with different combatives until the threat is neutralized (either knocked out or doesn’t want to fight anymore because they’re curled up into the fetal position). It takes training to get the mental and physical grit to keep going when all your body wants to do is stop.No, I know what KM trains as I’ve taken about 20-25 classes altogether before, ranging from L1-L3. IMO, what you train is like going into Berserker mode during your combatives. I don’t doubt that this should work well vs. untrained street people or even street toughguys. Just that it’s much less likely to work vs. a decent Amateur fighter and up, who’s going to be very calm and looking for openings, using footwork, etc. Sure there is a time to go in heavy for the KO, but it just takes a lot more skills to fight calmly vs. raging right off the bat. Like when we were noobies, we rage spar too and start going crazy until we gas. It took quite a while to become calm and picking shots.
quote :You stated that you’ve sparred KM practitioners before, where at?I’d rather not say because I may be up to doing some training again to further my defense vs. weapons training and don’t want to take the chance of embarrassing anyone or starting bad blood. I’ve sparred at a few places. I’m very respectful when I go there. It’s only when some of the KM guys gets mad that they’re not hitting anything and starts swinging for the fences that I have to light them up. And there are good KM guys who do fight, so I have no doubt about that. I’m not saying that KM is phony, I think it’s excellent for what it is and I’d say it’s the best of all the SD systems. All I’m suggesting is that a higher level is to train and actually fight full contact.
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
quote FearTheFighter:No, I know what KM trains as I’ve taken about 20-25 classes altogether before, ranging from L1-L3. IMO, what you train is like going into Berserker mode during your combatives. I don’t doubt that this should work well vs. untrained street people or even street toughguys. Just that it’s much less likely to work vs. a decent Amateur fighter and up, who’s going to be very calm and looking for openings, using footwork, etc. Sure there is a time to go in heavy for the KO, but it just takes a lot more skills to fight calmly vs. raging right off the bat. Like when we were noobies, we rage spar too and start going crazy until we gas. It took quite a while to become calm and picking shots.Who’s to say that berserker mode can’t be calm? The very best fight class I’ve ever had the privilege to take was with CJ’s Dad last year. He started us out with a drill that worked not only choosing your shots but also hitting what’s available, all while constantly moving and being moved by your partner. His final drill was one of the most intense shark tank drills I’ve ever experienced, yet when he demo’d it he demolished all 15-20 of us quickly, methodically, and calmly.
You’re right. It does take a while to learn to address threats and deal with them/fight calmly. How long have you been training MMA? I’m sure it’s been longer than 20-25 classes. The same goes for Krav Maga.
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
quote PinkGloves:Who’s to say that berserker mode can’t be calm? The very best fight class I’ve ever had the privilege to take was with CJ’s Dad last year. He started us out with a drill that worked not only choosing your shots but also hitting what’s available, all while constantly moving and being moved by your partner. His final drill was one of the most intense shark tank drills I’ve ever experienced, yet when he demo’d it he demolished all 15-20 of us quickly, methodically, and calmly.You’re right. It does take a while to learn to address threats and deal with them/fight calmly. How long have you been training MMA? I’m sure it’s been longer than 20-25 classes. The same goes for Krav Maga.
I don’t know who CJ’s Dad is, but he sounds like someone who’s of a higher level, which proved my point that it’s of a higher level to fight/spar calmly and not to go crazy with screaming and yelling. This is why I question if whether training to fight like a berserker right from the start when new and up to intermediate is good? I clearly remember when I first started sparring hard, there was a lot of fear, adrenaline, etc. and it was all out berserker mode brawling until gassing, which was not long; or until someone gets rocked or dropped. Against someone my level, it would be about whoever is more lucky it seems; while vs. someone advance, they’d just look for an opening and stop my berserker momentum with just simple jabs; then drop me if they wanted to. I’ve been training about 7 years or so. And in KM, I meant to say 20-25 classes per level so about 60-75 classes.
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
quote FearTheFighter:I don’t think there’s any “test” that your instructor would allow the MMA guy to throw full strikes for the KO while standing. Since it was friendly, the MMA probably decided to just take the KM down and go for a submission. I mean, it was a rubber knife, so go ahead and keep stabbing… the MMA should have just continued with his submission attempt. I don’t think this “test” proved anything. In the streets, I would rely on my standup, mostly my Boxing.You don’t need to knock out a guy to prove a point. You can simply light them up and not let them hit you at all. Going for a KO during sparring is not “sparring.” With that logic, I’m sure an MMA guy would NOT allow full force strikes to the groin, biting, headbutts, eye gouges, neck strikes or nail digging into the skin. The point is, “in the streets” you shouldn’t take someone to the ground, but during this guy’s “test of Krav,” decided to take him to the ground. He could have easily kept it stand up. Who is to say that KMKY wasn’t lighting him up and he (MMA guy) decided to go for a take down to stop the punches?
quote FearTheFighter:I think the main bad blood is when KM claims that MMA is merely a sport and it’s not real. IMO, KO’ing someone with one punch is as real as it gets. Putting my foot though someone’s head, trying to KO them is just as real as it gets. After he’s KO’ed, the fighter can stop there and go home or stay and kill him, then go to jail for life. All of this gets tested when you spar hard (although not completely conclusive, but pretty well enough).I haven’t heard anyone say that MMA isn’t real because I would say they’re delusional. I would say they [UFC] is trying to stir up BS [possibly fake] drama a la WWE for ticket sales. However, when KM states that MMA is merely for sport, it means that they don’t train against weapons such as knives, sticks and guns. I’ve seen a lot of news articles where pro MMA fighters are able to take out idiot thugs wielding knives or guns with their bare hands, but not everyone is a pro MMA fighter. I also don’t think they did a 1 punch knock out either, I think they punched them until they were incapacitated. Sounds familiar…
quote FearTheFighter:No, I know what KM trains as I’ve taken about 20-25 classes altogether before, ranging from L1-L3. IMO, what you train is like going into Berserker mode during your combatives. I don’t doubt that this should work well vs. untrained street people or even street toughguys. Just that it’s much less likely to work vs. a decent Amateur fighter and up, who’s going to be very calm and looking for openings, using footwork, etc. Sure there is a time to go in heavy for the KO, but it just takes a lot more skills to fight calmly vs. raging right off the bat. Like when we were noobies, we rage spar too and start going crazy until we gas. It took quite a while to become calm and picking shots.Wait what? I’m not an amateur fighter but I practice Krav, I am very calm during sparring, I look for openings or “targets of opportunities” and use footwork. The combatives should be controlled chaos. You shouldn’t just be punching like crazy just for the sake of punching. You should be throwing combatives in accordance to what is available for you to strike. I wouldn’t be striking someone’s head if their hands/arm was in the way, that would just be wasted energy and it wouldn’t be effective. I would look for other openings like their liver or groin.
This is just from my experience watching amateur fights, but a lot of them end up throwing wild haymakers by round 2 and attempting bad take downs and ending up in half guard holding on for dear life trying to catch their breath and letting the match go to the judge’s scorecards. I’ve also seen good amateur fights where both of the practitioners are dishing it out and someone got caught and knocked out or submitted. It’s not always set in stone. KM isn’t a competition based system. It’s designed for people who want tools to get them home safely if confronted by street tough guys, not to play chess in a ring. I know plenty of people who train KM than go on to compete in MMA. Now they do both KM and MMA. Please note that I have the utmost respect for MMA practitioners, and I incorporate as much ground/ grappling/wrestling training to supplement my stand up to be a well rounded practitioner of KM.
quote FearTheFighter:I’d rather not say because I may be up to doing some training again to further my defense vs. weapons training and don’t want to take the chance of embarrassing anyone or starting bad blood. I’ve sparred at a few places. I’m very respectful when I go there. It’s only when some of the KM guys gets mad that they’re not hitting anything and starts swinging for the fences that I have to light them up. And there are good KM guys who do fight, so I have no doubt about that. I’m not saying that KM is phony, I think it’s excellent for what it is and I’d say it’s the best of all the SD systems. All I’m suggesting is that a higher level is to train and actually fight full contact.I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. Aliveness training is a must and it’s great that you want to supplement your training with KM.
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
Fearthefighter,
It’s cool that you’re supplementing your MMA training with KM weapon defenses. You’ve also given KM a lot more credit than most guys on the MMA forum I posted to.
I think a lot of the MMA guys on there were judging Krav through an MMA filter. How would a KM guy match up with an MMA fighter. It’s effectiveness in the cage.
You mentioned that you were able to best even the most seasoned KM guys in sparring. The whole idea behind MMA training is to be better than the other trained fighter in front of you.
In my opinion, sparring in Krav is a way to practice fundamentals and not necessarily to simulate reality. If ever I was to find myself in a situation where I needed to defend my life or the life of a loved one…it would look very different from any sparring session I’ve had. It would probably resemble the berserker mode you spoke about earlier. I would be hitting available targets as quickly and viciously as I can until the attacker was no longer a threat and then getting the hell out of there.
As a system, KM is designed to give everyone an edge against an attacker in a life or death situation through easy to digest and recall techniques. I don’t think it was ever intended to give someone an edge over another trained fighter. Plus the chances of an MMA guy trying to kill me are probably much smaller than some random guy with a weapon and a few friends.
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
quote FearTheFighter:I don’t know who CJ’s Dad is, but he sounds like someone who’s of a higher level, which proved my point that it’s of a higher level to fight/spar calmly and not to go crazy with screaming and yelling. This is why I question if whether training to fight like a berserker right from the start when new and up to intermediate is good? I clearly remember when I first started sparring hard, there was a lot of fear, adrenaline, etc. and it was all out berserker mode brawling until gassing, which was not long; or until someone gets rocked or dropped. Against someone my level, it would be about whoever is more lucky it seems; while vs. someone advance, they’d just look for an opening and stop my berserker momentum with just simple jabs; then drop me if they wanted to. I’ve been training about 7 years or so. And in KM, I meant to say 20-25 classes per level so about 60-75 classes.I think there seems to be a heavy emphasis on sparring as a way to judge KM’s effectiveness. It’s probably the most effective way to simulate actual MMA competition. But in my opinion, it’s very different in Krav.
I think if I ever found myself in a life or death situation, it wouldn’t look anything like a sparring session…or at least I hope not. It would be more like the berserker mode you spoke about earlier. I would be hitting available targets as quickly and viciously as I can until the attacker was no longer a threat, and then I’d get out of there as quickly as I can.
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
quote MadDogMean:I think if I ever found myself in a life or death situation, it wouldn’t look anything like a sparring session…or at least I hope not. It would be more like the berserker mode you spoke about earlier. I would be hitting available targets as quickly and viciously as I can until the attacker was no longer a threat, and then I’d get out of there as quickly as I can.Going all out trying to destroy your opponent certainly does exist in MMA, Boxing and other sports fighting. It’s knowing when to do so in sports fighting, that makes it a higher level than general KM training. It can work in sports fighting to go crazy right off the bat, but in general it doesn’t because the other guy is also trained. The risk of gassing is much higher than the rewards for KO’ing him and ending the fight. That’s why you see a feeling out process that may take a while. Fighters are trying to clock each others timing and patterns.
On the street, an experienced fighter can go all out crazy right off the bat too and should destroy the average untrained toughguy, in general, pretty easily. But he doesn’t have to. Because that’s almost a guaranteed felony arrest & conviction plus highly possible civil suits afterward.
The Justice system will come down hard if such a trained fighter/Martial Artist beats someone to a pulp in public. More lenient for women, but not if you’re a man. Not even close to everything is a life or death situation. You can’t just go into berserker mode just because someone squeezes your buttcheek and maybe tug on your arm somewhat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN0kW6rg-rk
Or when you should go into berserker mode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z29nAyq3JcI
My point is, there’s no exact formula. It’s not all black & white nor that easy to figure out and adjust. And being an experienced fighter, gives you more options. Just as being armed with a gun, gives you even more options.
And in general, most SD systems are never really tested for real. It really is rare to get raped and robbed (with a beatdown). Most SD people never really get to test out if their training works. While sports fighters do and often. This is why when sparring happens, a fighter usually beats SD people pretty bad. And it’s not because nut kicks aren’t allowed, it’s just that the SD won’t be kicking anything when he’s getting jabbed in the face.
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
quote KMyoshi:You don’t need to knock out a guy to prove a point. You can simply light them up and not let them hit you at all. Going for a KO during sparring is not “sparring.”Sure there is. We spar for KO’s very often when working on our Boxing with 16oz gloves. We don’t go 100% power with MMA, even w/7oz gloves because it can still break noses and such, but sometimes it does spike to 100% when someone gets pissed or thinks they got hit harder than what was agreed to.
Sparring hard is not all the time, but often enough and especially when training for a fight. This is about 70-80% power with spikes to 100%. They’re also tired so even though they may be throwing 70-100% power, it’s not the same 70-100% power when they’re fresh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA5qOXD9dQA
Hell, Boxers at Boxing gyms in the ‘hood are a lot more rougher than the average MMA gym. Those old school Boxing trainers will often put a complete noob who doesn’t know much into the ring as Feeders for their fighters to beatdown into a pulp to see if they’re serious about learning to Box, has the heart, etc. and to also give their fighters target practice at a moving punching bag, cheap esteem and cheap thrills. They don’t give a crap if they lose students that may waste their time.
quote :With that logic, I’m sure an MMA guy would NOT allow full force strikes to the groin, biting, headbutts, eye gouges, neck strikes or nail digging into the skin.I’ll do this no problem. It would then be a grudge match now and no longer friendly if you want to start kicking at nutsacks and bite. I can do all of the above techniques just as well or usually stronger, faster and more precise than the average non-fighter. And I’m pretty sure my body is more used to getting beat on too.
quote :The point is, “in the streets” you shouldn’t take someone to the ground, but during this guy’s “test of Krav,” decided to take him to the ground. He could have easily kept it stand up. Who is to say that KMKY wasn’t lighting him up and he (MMA guy) decided to go for a take down to stop the punches?Sure, that MMA could have sucked or the KM was awesome. Who knows. But there’s nothing in MMA that teaches to always take the fight to the ground in the ring. That just depends how one chose to fight. I train ground fighting because it gives me options and to be able to defend takedowns. Just like why I also trained KM and looking to train KM further.
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
quote KMyoshi:I However, when KM states that MMA is merely for sport, it means that they don’t train against weapons such as knives, sticks and guns. I’ve seen a lot of news articles where pro MMA fighters are able to take out idiot thugs wielding knives or guns with their bare hands, but not everyone is a pro MMA fighter. I also don’t think they did a 1 punch knock out either, I think they punched them until they were incapacitated. Sounds familiar…In general, a lot of SD people try to say how their training is more real and I’m saying that punching someone in the face for the KO is as real as it get. This is their main selling point sometimes by trying to say that MMA is “just a sport”. Also, being able to take punches and kicks to the face repeatedly and continue on fighting is something that can’t be taught nor simulated, you have to test out your chin and the rest of your face and body to an actual beatdown and often. This is where most SD is weak, but this factor is critical. Now I’m not saying that this is you nor your school. The places where I’ve trained KM have Pro MMA fighters that will whoop my butt. I have no doubt that they are legit.
I will give it to SD and especially KM for gun defense. While knife defense, I would rely on KO’ing the knife wielder. Although I do know and do train your 360 Defense, I’d rather rely on my Boxing and go for the slow moving or usually, stationary face rather than the fast moving knife wielding hand.
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
quote FearTheFighter:Going all out trying to destroy your opponent certainly does exist in MMA, Boxing and other sports fighting. It’s knowing when to do so in sports fighting, that makes it a higher level than general KM training. It can work in sports fighting to go crazy right off the bat, but in general it doesn’t because the other guy is also trained. The risk of gassing is much higher than the rewards for KO’ing him and ending the fight. That’s why you see a feeling out process that may take a while. Fighters are trying to clock each others timing and patterns.On the street, an experienced fighter can go all out crazy right off the bat too and should destroy the average untrained toughguy, in general, pretty easily. But he doesn’t have to. Because that’s almost a guaranteed felony arrest & conviction plus highly possible civil suits afterward.
The Justice system will come down hard if such a trained fighter/Martial Artist beats someone to a pulp in public. More lenient for women, but not if you’re a man. Not even close to everything is a life or death situation. You can’t just go into berserker mode just because someone squeezes your buttcheek and maybe tug on your arm somewhat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN0kW6rg-rk
Or when you should go into berserker mode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z29nAyq3JcI
My point is, there’s no exact formula. It’s not all black & white nor that easy to figure out and adjust. And being an experienced fighter, gives you more options. Just as being armed with a gun, gives you even more options.
And in general, most SD systems are never really tested for real. It really is rare to get raped and robbed (with a beatdown). Most SD people never really get to test out if their training works. While sports fighters do and often. This is why when sparring happens, a fighter usually beats SD people pretty bad. And it’s not because nut kicks aren’t allowed, it’s just that the SD won’t be kicking anything when he’s getting jabbed in the face.
I think most KM students are taught appropriate levels of response, and for someone to attack a person to the point of serious injury or worse for being too grabby is probably not going to happen.
Just like you’ve stated, an MMA fighter is tested through sparring so you know where you stand when you’re faced with a one-on-one unarmed attacker. I’ve never trained at an MMA gym, but I’m assuming that reality-based training isn’t incorporated. So, the MMA fighter is untested and untrained against the variables outside of one-on-one unarmed combat. Yes, it’s hard to recreate a real-life rape, mugging, stabbing, home invasion…but drilling as close to real as possible tries to put the KM student in those situations.
Please don’t take this as a dig against MMA. I think that MMA training is top-notch, and if I had the money, time, and youth, I’d certainly supplement my KM training with more specialized striking and grappling.
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
quote FearTheFighter:Going all out trying to destroy your opponent certainly does exist in MMA, Boxing and other sports fighting. It’s knowing when to do so in sports fighting, that makes it a higher level than general KM training. It can work in sports fighting to go crazy right off the bat, but in general it doesn’t because the other guy is also trained. The risk of gassing is much higher than the rewards for KO’ing him and ending the fight. That’s why you see a feeling out process that may take a while. Fighters are trying to clock each others timing and patterns.:Deadhorse: MMA and KM have two different purposes but are not mutually exclusive. One is for competing in the ring and can go as high as the professional level (hence harder training regimen) whereas KM is for people who want the fundamentals to fighting, a no non-sense approach to it and how to deal with unarmed combat against weapons. They train how to overwhelm someone who is threatening physical harm to them so they can get out safely.
I expect MMA training to be of a higher level because you are agreeing with another fighter to duke it out in a ring and I also expect fighters to destroy their opponents when they are in a match. I’m just referring to not trying to destroy your sparring partner during sparring sessions.
quote FearTheFighter:On the street, an experienced fighter can go all out crazy right off the bat too and should destroy the average untrained toughguy, in general, pretty easily. But he doesn’t have to. Because that’s almost a guaranteed felony arrest & conviction plus highly possible civil suits afterward.The Justice system will come down hard if such a trained fighter/Martial Artist beats someone to a pulp in public. More lenient for women, but not if you’re a man. Not even close to everything is a life or death situation. You can’t just go into berserker mode just because someone squeezes your buttcheek and maybe tug on your arm somewhat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN0kW6rg-rk
Or when you should go into berserker mode:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z29nAyq3JcI
My point is, there’s no exact formula. It’s not all black & white nor that easy to figure out and adjust. And being an experienced fighter, gives you more options. Just as being armed with a gun, gives you even more options.
Yes, as would a KM practitioner vs. an average untrained tough guy. Use of force is always brought up in class for discussion and how to try to de-escalate a bad situation from getting worse. KM trains from a position of disadvantage, if they felt the need to go on the offensive, the sh!t has already hit the fan. We always discuss that you can’t beat the crap out of someone just for looking at you wrong.
quote FearTheFighter:And in general, most SD systems are never really tested for real. It really is rare to get raped and robbed (with a beatdown). Most SD people never really get to test out if their training works. While sports fighters do and often. This is why when sparring happens, a fighter usually beats SD people pretty bad. And it’s not because nut kicks aren’t allowed, it’s just that the SD won’t be kicking anything when he’s getting jabbed in the face.“It is really rare to get raped and robbed with a beat down?” Tell that to these people. Assholes usually rape or rob people after some type of physical coercion, whether it be with a weapon or physical violence.
Once again :Deadhorse:. It’s all about HOW people train than it is WHAT they train. If a KM practitioner or any martial artist never spars, what do you expect? Sparring is a very important element in training and everyone should do it so they know how it feels to get hit and how to function when getting hit.
quote FearTheFighter:Sure there is. We spar for KO’s very often when working on our Boxing with 16oz gloves. We don’t go 100% power with MMA, even w/7oz gloves because it can still break noses and such, but sometimes it does spike to 100% when someone gets pissed or thinks they got hit harder than what was agreed to.Sparring hard is not all the time, but often enough and especially when training for a fight. This is about 70-80% power with spikes to 100%. They’re also tired so even though they may be throwing 70-100% power, it’s not the same 70-100% power when they’re fresh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA5qOXD9dQA
Hell, Boxers at Boxing gyms in the ‘hood are a lot more rougher than the average MMA gym. Those old school Boxing trainers will often put a complete noob who doesn’t know much into the ring as Feeders for their fighters to beatdown into a pulp to see if they’re serious about learning to Box, has the heart, etc. and to also give their fighters target practice at a moving punching bag, cheap esteem and cheap thrills. They don’t give a crap if they lose students that may waste their time.
I did not know that. It makes sense to spar that hard when you have a fight coming up to make sure you’re use to the physical beating but on the flip side, I also figured it wouldn’t make sense because what if you get injured prior to the fight? I’ve trained at an MMA gym for a few months and was only there once a week but since I wasn’t training to compete, we never sparred hard enough for anyone to get knocked out.
quote FearTheFighter:I’ll do this no problem. It would then be a grudge match now and no longer friendly if you want to start kicking at nutsacks and bite. I can do all of the above techniques just as well or usually stronger, faster and more precise than the average non-fighter. And I’m pretty sure my body is more used to getting beat on too.Okay tough guy bow1
quote FearTheFighter:Sure, that MMA could have sucked or the KM was awesome. Who knows. But there’s nothing in MMA that teaches to always take the fight to the ground in the ring. That just depends how one chose to fight. I train ground fighting because it gives me options and to be able to defend takedowns. Just like why I also trained KM and looking to train KM further.There is nothing that states to always take the fight to the ground in the ring, but there’s a huge percentage of matches that do go to the ground, round after round. Could be because one person doesn’t have good stand up game and doesn’t like getting beat on by kicks and punches to the face, maybe they’re tired and can catch their breath while in side control, guard… etc.
quote FearTheFighter:In general, a lot of SD people try to say how their training is more real and I’m saying that punching someone in the face for the KO is as real as it get. This is their main selling point sometimes by trying to say that MMA is “just a sport”. Also, being able to take punches and kicks to the face repeatedly and continue on fighting is something that can’t be taught nor simulated, you have to test out your chin and the rest of your face and body to an actual beatdown and often. This is where most SD is weak, but this factor is critical. Now I’m not saying that this is you nor your school. The places where I’ve trained KM have Pro MMA fighters that will whoop my butt. I have no doubt that they are legit.I will give it to SD and especially KM for gun defense. While knife defense, I would rely on KO’ing the knife wielder. Although I do know and do train your 360 Defense, I’d rather rely on my Boxing and go for the slow moving or usually, stationary face rather than the fast moving knife wielding hand.
:Deadhorse: Are we done beating the proverbial dead horse? “Just a sport” refers to the lack of weapons defenses and defenses against chokes against walls, hair grabs, etc. Sure, YOU can knock someone out with one punch but not everyone has that type of power. Smaller framed people (like myself) need to utilize leverage to help compensate for the lack of strength and power. If we could just punch an attacker to stop a choke against a wall, we would… believe me.
We’ve already come to the agreement that sparring is necessary and your training can’t be complete if you don’t spar.
As for the knife wielder vs. boxing… good luck. I would have said Muay Thai [techniques] instead of boxing but… what do I know?
Re: Groin Kicks is all there is
I don’t think teaching beginning KM students to go berserk is a bad thing. As they gain experience, they can refine it. The goal of the classes is to prepare them to survive a street fight the best they can given their abilities and training. Randy Couture (or any pro fighter) doesn’t go around mugging people in dark alleys so that’s not who you’re most likely to face in the real world. The average street thug is far less likely to be ready for a berserker attack.
At the upper levels of either KM (black belt) or MMA (UFC, etc.), there’s some serious skill there and a bad guy would be better off not picking a fight with either one. They’ve both paid their dues and learned to fight very well. It’s very unlikely they’d be fighting each other on the street. But comparing the skill of a pro athlete who trains several hours a day to a 40 year old accountant who trains once or twice a week is just silly. Obviously, the better athlete who trains more wins a fight, regardless of what he calls his training.
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