Groin Kicks is all there is

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote KMKY:

I use to work a lot of MMA shows in the area and I’ve had the pleasure of meeting many former UFC title holders. They have always been very polite and respectful of all the martial arts and many, after finding out that I did Krav, would ask questions and give me advice (Rich Franklin changed the way I do the Muay Thai grip after he fought Anderson Silva the first time).

It would be pretty suicidal, business-wise and financially, for an MMA fighter or whatever to do a freakin’ MMA show, where they’re either getting paid to endorse a product or putting up their own money to promote their own business or product line(s) and then trash other people’s style(s) of MA(s) on camera, as everyone’s got one of those nowadays. So of course it’s going to be a giant circle jerk, this is just common sense.

quote :

The only time I’ve ever seen anyone who claimed that their system was the way to do things is when they were brand new to whatever they were studying or they were heavily invested financially in it (school owners).

Ever heard of The Gracie Challenge? It’s only been around for nearly 100 years. Then Vale Tudo. Then the early UFC’s. It’s a put up or shut up tournament to end all the hocus pocus and bullcrap artists within the Martial Arts world. No disqualifying rules. Bite, eye gouge, pressure points, soccer kicks to the head, go ahead…..Gracie made sure he punished them for such, ie. break their arm, before the Ref pulls him off.

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote catapult:

Nevermind. You obviously know all about knife fighting from practicing in the mirror. You wouldn’t want to go up against someone who knows something about it, with a weapon that hurts like hell, even though it won’t do any permanent damage. rofl2

I do full contact sparring with rattan escrima sticks too, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKEM5EQxBTs

What, you think I never sparred with rubber or dull aluminum knives before? Traditional Jujutsu is big on knife defense. My friend, who’s a 2nd dan in TJJ taught this and he can never get my knife without getting slashed at least 10x. The only reason he keeps coming forward is because it’s a rubber knife. On the streets, I’m serious about keeping my knifes sharp, and they ain’t no Walmart specials neither.

[lennykravist]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

FTF, I’m not going to try to change your opinion, just wanted to state a few things I think about in and outside of class. Does MMA spar harder than KM? Hard to say unequivocally but I will say I HAVE been hit in class.

I got side hammer-fisted in the cheekbone by a bigger partner because I held the pad too low (or he simply missed, either way the point is I got popped).

I got elbowed in the jaw because another partner missed the pad. I “shinned” a partner by mistake and finished class (and showed up to the next classes) with a giant goose-egg on my right shin.

When doing knees, I partnered up with another guy my size and build and I tell you what, pad or not, I felt every one of his knees. He knocked the wind out of me with every single knee. So that’s what it feels like …

Mistakes can happen in class, so while the intent isn’t full contact as you say it is in MMA, hits and kicks do happen. I’ve seen it happen with others too. I’d honestly say these hits were in at least the 70% minimum threshold you gave for your idea of sparring. Honestly, that **** really hurt. Rung my bell and you know what? I shook it off and continued without missing a beat. So I’d say from personal experience, getting your bell rung even if by accident, qualifies as a legit training. You take that punch or whatever, whether you wanted it or not. But I tell you what, those mistakes didn’t happen again. I learned and got better. So did my partners. I get hit less (because I’m dodging and defending more confidently and correctly). So while MMA sparring hard is intentional, KM has its moments too more often than not. But again, you have your opinion. As a side note, when we’re doing inside, kick or 360 defenses, the attacker is actually trying to hit you in the face. You miss the re-direct, you’re getting hit! Would that be considered hard sparring? Maybe not, but you’re getting it on the chin for real if you miss the defense.

Training, by its nature, is flawed. You can go to a boxer’s gym in the inner city for real training, but you’ll get knocked out and spend what, 2 weeks recovering from a concussion? MMA training, you hyper-extend a joint trying (or escaping) a grapple and again, you’re down for recovery for who knows how long depending on the injury. Even if you battle through it, you’re compromised. Same with Krav. Yeah, we could hard spar elbows, knees, throat punches, etc., but what good would that do except put us in the hospital for an extended time? Rinse, repeat. All training is flawed. But it’s meant to get you in control of your fight or flight reaction, and make you act accordingly instead of freeze in fright since you’ve seen a similar situation before (during your training).

I also think it’s a mistake to underestimate anyone, in particular the Krav “noobs” you’ve partnered with (or anyone really), simply because they weren’t able to get past your defenses. By the very term you labeled them, they must clearly be new and are still learning the dynamics of footwork, movement, etc. OF COURSE, you’re going to be well ahead of them, you have more training! On equal skill level, do you think an experienced kravist would just dart in blind and swinging? Like you’ve mentioned before, when an MMA guy go for knives, etc., a seasoned kravist could also have great footwork, patience and the ability to one-hit KO someone. They’re not mutually exclusive. In a training environment, sure maybe the new guys are sloppy. If the situation were different, on the streets, and say YOU were the one trying to mug them, do you think they’d just brawl into you willy-nilly? They’d either run, maybe feel you out or even better, not be in the area to begin with. The noobs you’ve pounded on are trying to train, so of course they’re going to keep trying to soft spar and hit you. They’re not there yet, but they could be. Outside of class, I never assume that just because (I’ll use a homeless dude as an example) a vagrant doesn’t “look” like he could take me, doesn’t mean that he can’t! Making the assumption that just because your skills are better and “I got this guy” because you spar for real could get you killed. While you’re beating on the homeless guy who doesn’t look like much, his homeless friend is shanking you from behind. You can’t ever assume that someone (no matter how inexperienced) isn’t capable of getting in a lucky shot. All anyone needs is one shot. Is Krav the be-all, end-all to prevent this? No, and neither is MMA. In fact, no MA is a guarantee. So really, after this wall of text, the entire point of what’s better to spar with, is moot. In the end, what matters is the skill of the practitioners involved. This whole MMA vs Krav is such a tired argument (it really is) and this is the only time I’ve commented on the subject. So have your opinion, that’s fine but don’t assume that just because someone doesn’t spar hard, or looks like a noob, doesn’t mean they can’t (or won’t) do serious damage when push comes to shove. A cornered animal is at its most dangerous.

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote KMyoshi:

:dunno: Admit to what? That there is other ways to toughen people up without giving them a concussion?

Which is another admission that you’re scared to get hit in the head, repeatedly; for real. Why do you think that there are so many hot chicks in KM while there’s usually none in MMA. You know exactly why you don’t go over to the MMA side of your gym when it’s hard sparring time. C’mon man, I know the drill.

quote :

He probably got banned because they didn’t specify how hard they were going to spar.

If they didn’t specify how hard, then who’s fault is that? He was the visitor. Him being the assistant instructor, should have made this clear. And the guy tried to kick my friend in the nuts but was countered with a jab.

quote :

And I think you don’t understand. I’ve already said that MMA training is obviously going to be harder due to the fact that it is completely competition based.

You’re the one who don’t understand that this is why MMA is superior KM, even though you just indirectly admitted this. I must have explained this to you at least 5x already. You try to simulate a fight with pads, while Boxers tries to knock each other out during sparring. Which is more realistic?

quote :

If you are doing MMA, you are eventually going to be doing some type of competition, whether it be a smoker, amateur or pro hopefully so it’s only natural for you to train as hard as you can because you can expect your opponent is going to try to knock you out. In KM, you don’t NEED to do this.

Then in KM, you don’t know if you’re just going to fold into the fetal position should your nutstrike fail and someone is beating the crap out of you in the street. Or if they get their strike off first and lands it, followed by many more. Your chin has never been tested. Not even ONCE. Hell, it takes years and a lot of hard sparring and getting beatdown, knocked down and knocked out to really test your chin….and keep on fighting as you’re getting the crap beaten out of you by someone much more experienced.

quote :

If you train KM and someone (or yourself) starts something with someone and you stand toe to toe with them, you’re already doing KM wrong. KM is not meant for someone to say “hey, let’s fight, get in a fight stance and begin.” It’s “lets preemptively strike them if I feel I’m in physical danger, not let them get a chance to know wtf is going on and gtfo.”

This is the same BS being sold by the Kung-Fooeys and other TMA’s (that don’t fight) using the SD angle. There’s no exact formula for the many situations possible on the streets. You make it sound like a fighter is going to wait for a Ref to say “fight” in the street or something….like a fighter is too stupid to tell the difference between a prison cell and the ring.

quote :

If you’re referring to a KO via a sucker punch, well anyone can get knocked out via sucker punch. Can’t defend what you don’t know is coming at you.

I wasn’t, but someone who’s used to getting punched in the head is going to be much more resilient to someone who never tested out their chin before and repeatedly.

quote :

The reason why BJJ dominated is because the other arts trained very little if any ground at all.

Well who’s fault is that?

quote :

What is considered “average” MMA training aside from the hard sparring?

Well I can do 3 KM classes back to back, 5-6 days a week, no problem. While doing a 1 hour Boxing and 1.5 hour BJJ b2b, 5-6 days a week will hurt me a lot more and not just from sparring, because there’s always sparring in BJJ for at least 30-45 minutes. And if there’s sparring in Boxing, it would be even more taxing.

quote :

As I’ve stated in this post already, KM is not for standing toe to toe with someone. “Oh you want to fight… let me take out my wallet, cellphone, knife, car keys and roll up my sleeves…” Do you think I’m going to be doing some fight dance with you, trying to work jabs? If someone was up in my face trying to talk big and I thought a sucker punch was going to come any second, I would be the one throwing the punch first and going from there.

Then if there are witnesses, witnesses with cameras, surveillance cameras, cops arriving on the scene, etc. and or all of the above…..then you’ll PROBABLY be the one going to jail and charged with felony assault charges. Me, I’m just going to be calm, relaxed and try to diffuse the situation while keeping distance. See, I don’t freak out when someone’s being all scary and threatening me.

quote :

I’m far from butt hurt. It’s actually quite amusing having this discussion with you.

Thanks for clearing this up, haha.

[pinkgloves]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote FearTheFighter:

Which is another admission that you’re scared to get hit in the head, repeatedly; for real.

I’ve trained and sparred with Yoshi. He isn’t afraid to take it or dish it.

quote FearTheFighter:

Why do you think that there are so many hot chicks in KM while there’s usually none in MMA. You know exactly why you don’t go over to the MMA side of your gym when it’s hard sparring time. C’mon man, I know the drill.

Damn, you figured me out! Guess this means I should stop taking my boxing lessons. 🙁

[kmyoshi]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote FearTheFighter:

Which is another admission that you’re scared to get hit in the head, repeatedly; for real. Why do you think that there are so many hot chicks in KM while there’s usually none in MMA. You know exactly why you don’t go over to the MMA side of your gym when it’s hard sparring time. C’mon man, I know the drill.

What? Who says I don’t train on the MMA side of my gym? I’m small, about 120lbs give or take. Everyone I train with has at least 30 lbs on me. They punch pretty hard but I don’t think they intend to go hard enough to knock me out. Are we now resorting to calling each other scaredy cats?

quote FearTheFighter:

If they didn’t specify how hard, then who’s fault is that? He was the visitor. Him being the assistant instructor, should have made this clear. And the guy tried to kick my friend in the nuts but was countered with a jab.

The deadly jab strikes again!

quote FearTheFighter:

You’re the one who don’t understand that this is why MMA is superior KM, even though you just indirectly admitted this. I must have explained this to you at least 5x already. You try to simulate a fight with pads, while Boxers tries to knock each other out during sparring. Which is more realistic?

I’m saying that MMA trains harder (as they should) due to the nature of it. We don’t “simulate” a fight with pads. We do free for all (as in everyone vs. everyone) sparring sessions training our OODA loop to go from one attacker to another. We use pads, yes, but not only pads.

quote FearTheFighter:

Then in KM, you don’t know if you’re just going to fold into the fetal position should your nutstrike fail and someone is beating the crap out of you in the street. Or if they get their strike off first and lands it, followed by many more. Your chin has never been tested. Not even ONCE. Hell, it takes years and a lot of hard sparring and getting beatdown, knocked down and knocked out to really test your chin….and keep on fighting as you’re getting the crap beaten out of you by someone much more experienced.

My chin has been tested. I stepped into a knee and got flash knocked out and got back up. Taught me to keep my hands up when I’m stepping to cut an angle :):

quote FearTheFighter:

This is the same BS being sold by the Kung-Fooeys and other TMA’s (that don’t fight) using the SD angle. There’s no exact formula for the many situations possible on the streets. You make it sound like a fighter is going to wait for a Ref to say “fight” in the street or something….like a fighter is too stupid to tell the difference between a prison cell and the ring.

And you make it seem like KM people only wait for **** to hit the fan before acting. It is true, there is no exact formula for such a dynamic situation but that’s the beauty of KM, fewer techniques for many situations.

quote FearTheFighter:

I wasn’t, but someone who’s used to getting punched in the head is going to be much more resilient to someone who never tested out their chin before and repeatedly.

Isn’t that what sparring is for? So you get use to getting punched in the head?

quote FearTheFighter:

Well who’s fault is that?

So are we now on the dick riding of the Gracies?

quote FearTheFighter:

Well I can do 3 KM classes back to back, 5-6 days a week, no problem. While doing a 1 hour Boxing and 1.5 hour BJJ b2b, 5-6 days a week will hurt me a lot more and not just from sparring, because there’s always sparring in BJJ for at least 30-45 minutes. And if there’s sparring in Boxing, it would be even more taxing.

Congrats. I train on average 2-4 hours a day depending on the day of the week. Yesterday (Thursday) I did 2 hours in the morning then 4 hours in the evening. Did a lot of grappling with people much bigger than me so I pretty much got tossed around during sparring.

quote FearTheFighter:

Then if there are witnesses, witnesses with cameras, surveillance cameras, cops arriving on the scene, etc. and or all of the above…..then you’ll PROBABLY be the one going to jail and charged with felony assault charges. Me, I’m just going to be calm, relaxed and try to diffuse the situation while keeping distance. See, I don’t freak out when someone’s being all scary and threatening me.

Back peddling I see. I already said KM tries to defuse the situation before it escalates, but sometimes there’s people who just don’t like to back down due to ego, friends egging them on, poor self control, etc.. We tend to try to stay away from trouble before it happens via situational awareness thumbsup

quote FearTheFighter:

Thanks for clearing this up, haha.

You bet :wav:

[kmyoshi]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote FearTheFighter:

Which is another admission that you’re scared to get hit in the head, repeatedly; for real. Why do you think that there are so many hot chicks in KM while there’s usually none in MMA. You know exactly why you don’t go over to the MMA side of your gym when it’s hard sparring time. C’mon man, I know the drill.

What? Who says I don’t train on the MMA side of my gym? I’m small, about 120lbs give or take. Everyone I train with has at least 30 lbs on me. They punch pretty hard but I don’t think they intend to go hard enough to knock me out. Are we now resorting to calling each other scaredy cats?

quote FearTheFighter:

If they didn’t specify how hard, then who’s fault is that? He was the visitor. Him being the assistant instructor, should have made this clear. And the guy tried to kick my friend in the nuts but was countered with a jab.

The deadly jab strikes again!

quote FearTheFighter:

You’re the one who don’t understand that this is why MMA is superior KM, even though you just indirectly admitted this. I must have explained this to you at least 5x already. You try to simulate a fight with pads, while Boxers tries to knock each other out during sparring. Which is more realistic?

I’m saying that MMA trains harder (as they should) due to the nature of it. We don’t “simulate” a fight with pads. We do free for all (as in everyone vs. everyone) sparring sessions training our OODA loop to go from one attacker to another. We use pads, yes, but not only pads.

quote FearTheFighter:

Then in KM, you don’t know if you’re just going to fold into the fetal position should your nutstrike fail and someone is beating the crap out of you in the street. Or if they get their strike off first and lands it, followed by many more. Your chin has never been tested. Not even ONCE. Hell, it takes years and a lot of hard sparring and getting beatdown, knocked down and knocked out to really test your chin….and keep on fighting as you’re getting the crap beaten out of you by someone much more experienced.

My chin has been tested. I stepped into a knee and got flash knocked out and got back up. Taught me to keep my hands up when I’m stepping to cut an angle :):

quote FearTheFighter:

This is the same BS being sold by the Kung-Fooeys and other TMA’s (that don’t fight) using the SD angle. There’s no exact formula for the many situations possible on the streets. You make it sound like a fighter is going to wait for a Ref to say “fight” in the street or something….like a fighter is too stupid to tell the difference between a prison cell and the ring.

And you make it seem like KM people only wait for **** to hit the fan before acting. It is true, there is no exact formula for such a dynamic situation but that’s the beauty of KM, fewer techniques for many situations.

quote FearTheFighter:

I wasn’t, but someone who’s used to getting punched in the head is going to be much more resilient to someone who never tested out their chin before and repeatedly.

Isn’t that what sparring is for? So you get use to getting punched in the head?

quote FearTheFighter:

Well who’s fault is that?

The introduction of BJJ was a real eye opener to the martial art world. But once again, ground may rule in the ring, but try doing that on the street and you’ll just end up getting stomped on. Let’s not turn this into Gracie nut riding okay?

quote FearTheFighter:

Well I can do 3 KM classes back to back, 5-6 days a week, no problem. While doing a 1 hour Boxing and 1.5 hour BJJ b2b, 5-6 days a week will hurt me a lot more and not just from sparring, because there’s always sparring in BJJ for at least 30-45 minutes. And if there’s sparring in Boxing, it would be even more taxing.

Congrats. I train on average 2-4 hours a day depending on the day of the week. Yesterday (Thursday) I did 2 hours in the morning then 4 hours in the evening. Did a lot of grappling with people much bigger than me so I pretty much got tossed around during sparring.

quote FearTheFighter:

Then if there are witnesses, witnesses with cameras, surveillance cameras, cops arriving on the scene, etc. and or all of the above…..then you’ll PROBABLY be the one going to jail and charged with felony assault charges. Me, I’m just going to be calm, relaxed and try to diffuse the situation while keeping distance. See, I don’t freak out when someone’s being all scary and threatening me.

Back peddling I see. I already said KM tries to defuse the situation before it escalates, but sometimes there’s people who just don’t like to back down due to ego, friends egging them on, poor self control, etc.. We tend to try to stay away from trouble before it happens via situational awareness thumbsup

quote FearTheFighter:

Thanks for clearing this up, haha.

You bet :wav:

[pinkgloves]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote FearTheFighter:

Then in KM, you don’t know if you’re just going to fold into the fetal position should your nutstrike fail and someone is beating the crap out of you in the street. Or if they get their strike off first and lands it, followed by many more. Your chin has never been tested. Not even ONCE. Hell, it takes years and a lot of hard sparring and getting beatdown, knocked down and knocked out to really test your chin….and keep on fighting as you’re getting the crap beaten out of you by someone much more experienced.

No, it really doesn’t. If someone doesn’t like getting hit then they’ll quit the first time they accidently get popped in class. Those who stay don’t need to have the crap beaten out of them for years. They’ll get knocked down, or out, and then get back up and keep on training.

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote LennyKravist:

When doing knees, I partnered up with another guy my size and build and I tell you what, pad or not, I felt every one of his knees. He knocked the wind out of me with every single knee. So that’s what it feels like …

Sure, all of this does help toughen you up. Just not even close to the same as getting kneed for real or punched in the face for real though. In our gym, we wear the belly pads and take full knees in MT. It hurts more than the kick shields as you can cheat a little with them by angling them outward or place your side and leg behind them, while the belly pad is like another layer of skin and the knees are landing right into your abs, ribs, etc.

This is why I’m saying that MMA training is superior to KM, but I’m not, nor ever said that KM sucks.

quote :

70% minimum threshold you gave for your idea of sparring. Honestly, that **** really hurt. Rung my bell and you know what? I shook it off and continued without missing a beat. So I’d say from personal experience, getting your bell rung even if by accident, qualifies as a legit training.

But this is not even close to being the same as your training partner coming back and ringing your bell over and over until you’re down or KO’ed. Then doing it again in the next round.

quote :

Training, by its nature, is flawed.

Absolutely, which is why I’ve been saying that MMA training is just superior to KM for SD (with the exception of Gun Defense), but never said that KM sucks or anything.

quote :

Same with Krav. Yeah, we could hard spar elbows, knees, throat punches, etc., but what good would that do except put us in the hospital for an extended time? Rinse, repeat. All training is flawed. But it’s meant to get you in control of your fight or flight reaction, and make you act accordingly instead of freeze in fright since you’ve seen a similar situation before (during your training).

Well you can spar with elbow pads and gloves. And throats strikes aren’t that big a deal. I’d rather get hit in the throat than my chin. Been hit in the throat many times. Didn’t stop anything. The KM gym I trained at did have sparring with 16oz gloves, shinguards and headgear. I couldn’t believe how easy it was to beat them. One guy had over 7 years of KM, and he wasn’t even the best there. I was going light until some of them got mad because they couldn’t hit me and went hard. They started to turn away completely and practically folded up. I didn’t keep going with the beating because this was friendly sparring and I was a visitor. I just wanted to show them so they’d tone down their aggression. I’m respectful and the instructor recognized this.

quote :

On equal skill level, do you think an experienced kravist would just dart in blind and swinging?

I don’t doubt that there are legit KM’s that do fight and can beat my ass. Just that it’s very rare, and I’m really a nobody in the fighting scene, just a hobbyist. I trained KM because I’m serious about SD. I also carry knives and guns because again, I’m very serious about SD.

quote :

In the end, what matters is the skill of the practitioners involved. This whole MMA vs Krav is such a tired argument (it really is) and this is the only time I’ve commented on the subject. So have your opinion, that’s fine but don’t assume that just because someone doesn’t spar hard, or looks like a noob, doesn’t mean they can’t (or won’t) do serious damage when push comes to shove. A cornered animal is at its most dangerous.

Sparring hard and testing your chin out for years is an essential component of this skill set that you’re referring to. Sure anything can happen, but an experienced fighter will IN GENERAL, beat down whatever cornered animal that is supposedly dangerous if it never really fought for real and often, before. When I was prepping for my first fight in the ring, ever, the instructors were beating me down during hard sparring. You think I didn’t try to throw everything that I had at them whenever I can in the midst of eating multiple combos to my face and body? At a certain point, your will and body will give out. You can feel as dangerous as you want, but if the other guy is more dangerous, then you’re in for a beating.

This is a legit KM school, IMO, right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA5qOXD9dQA

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote PinkGloves:

Those who stay don’t need to have the crap beaten out of them for years.

This would explain why they USUALLY don’t do well when sparring vs. experienced fighters who have equal numbers of training years and such.

This is legit KM sparring, IMO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA5qOXD9dQA

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote PinkGloves:

Damn, you figured me out! Guess this means I should stop taking my boxing lessons. 🙁

or maybe you’re overreaching with your personal perception of your looks? :abx:

[pinkgloves]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote FearTheFighter:

or maybe you’re overreaching with your personal perception of your looks? :abx:

Touché

[kmyoshi]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote FearTheFighter:

or maybe you’re overreaching with your personal perception of your looks? :abx:

Like how you might be overreaching with your personal perception of your deadly jab that stops knife wielding attackers?

And FWIW, I think PinkGloves is good looking. ;):

[don]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote KMyoshi:

And FWIW, I think PinkGloves is good looking. ;):

:D:

[don]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

And FWIW:

[Author]

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