Groin Kicks is all there is

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote catapult:

I don’t think teaching beginning KM students to go berserk is a bad thing. As they gain experience, they can refine it.

I don’t agree with this because Boxing, MMA and other MA’s that fights, always teaches noobs to calm down and relax during sparring. Low chances that anyone would one day get mugged on the streets by Randy Couture, but why not train the right way?

quote :

But comparing the skill of a pro athlete who trains several hours a day to a 40 year old accountant who trains once or twice a week is just silly. Obviously, the better athlete who trains more wins a fight, regardless of what he calls his training.

I was comparing a 40 year old accountant who trains and fights Amateur, low level MMA vs. a 40 year old accountant who trains KM that doesn’t fight. Both are hobbyists pretty much.

[catapult]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote FearTheFighter:

I don’t agree with this because Boxing, MMA and other MA’s that fights, always teaches noobs to calm down and relax during sparring. Low chances that anyone would one day get mugged on the streets by Randy Couture, but why not train the right way?

And there’s the difference in emphasis. Sport MAs are training students to survive a 3-5 minute round. Street fights are usually over (one way or the other) in a few seconds.

Look, nobody who has only trained for a few weeks is going to be very good, whatever the gym’s style. But KM tries to get them ready from day one to fight if they get mugged going home tonight not next year when they are good enough to start competing. The concept of Retzev (continuous combat motion) is to go on the offensive, get some licks in to disrupt the guy’s internal fight computer, and don’t quit until you finish him or you can make your escape. The more you practice it, the more skilled and less frenzied it becomes, but it’s a useful concept from day one.

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote catapult:

And there’s the difference in emphasis. Sport MAs are training students to survive a 3-5 minute round. Street fights are usually over (one way or the other) in a few seconds.

Well, in general, the average Amateur MMA fighter will destroy the average toughguy in the streets within those first few seconds anyway.

quote :

Look, nobody who has only trained for a few weeks is going to be very good, whatever the gym’s style. But KM tries to get them ready from day one to fight if they get mugged going home tonight not next year when they are good enough to start competing. The concept of Retzev (continuous combat motion) is to go on the offensive, get some licks in to disrupt the guy’s internal fight computer, and don’t quit until you finish him or you can make your escape. The more you practice it, the more skilled and less frenzied it becomes, but it’s a useful concept from day one.

Maybe. Because there’s a lot of techniques that is taught in KM at even L1. Just like there’s a lot to learn in MMA. So you just have sloppy new people in both camps for month 1-6 anyway. And with the biggest weakness being, their chin and entire face/head have never been tested. Pads don’t hit back.

If you really want an accelerated combat program to get you ready for that hypothetical mugging when you walk home, go join a Boxing gym in the ‘hood. They’ll get you proficient real fast. Those old school Black dudes will put you in the ring, going full blast w/a killer, for your first KO and maybe concussion w/i 1-2 months of training. I know I don’t have the balls for this when I was new, but if you’re really serious about SD, this is it.

While in general, I think SD is just for show. It’s really rare to get raped or mugged. Just give them the wallet and buy another one. SD just looks good on paper, but rarely does anyone get to try it out to see if it works. So it’s just a good workout and you do learn some skills, so it’s not a loss or anything. All I’m saying is that fight training is superior w/the exception of gun disarming, although that’s a really risky choice as opposed to just giving them the wallet.

[kmyoshi]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote FearTheFighter:

Well, in general, the average Amateur MMA fighter will destroy the average toughguy in the streets within those first few seconds anyway.

Wouldn’t doubt it.

quote FearTheFighter:

Maybe. Because there’s a lot of techniques that is taught in KM at even L1. Just like there’s a lot to learn in MMA. So you just have sloppy new people in both camps for month 1-6 anyway. And with the biggest weakness being, their chin and entire face/head have never been tested. Pads don’t hit back.

Agreed, which is why I think sparring needs to be introduced in L1… but this is why there is fight classes.

quote FearTheFighter:

If you really want an accelerated combat program to get you ready for that hypothetical mugging when you walk home, go join a Boxing gym in the ‘hood. They’ll get you proficient real fast. Those old school Black dudes will put you in the ring, going full blast w/a killer, for your first KO and maybe concussion w/i 1-2 months of training. I know I don’t have the balls for this when I was new, but if you’re really serious about SD, this is it.

While in general, I think SD is just for show. It’s really rare to get raped or mugged. Just give them the wallet and buy another one. SD just looks good on paper, but rarely does anyone get to try it out to see if it works. So it’s just a good workout and you do learn some skills, so it’s not a loss or anything. All I’m saying is that fight training is superior w/the exception of gun disarming, although that’s a really risky choice as opposed to just giving them the wallet.

Krav is used by many law enforcement agencies and they see a lot of close quarter combat so I think it’s tested in the real world just fine. And sure, statistically in a single big city it is “rare” to get raped or mugged, but I’m sure the unlucky person who happens to be at the wrong place at the wrong time in whatever part of the world will sure feel better knowing they know a gun disarm, or how to get out of a choke quickly and efficiently rather than relying strictly on boxing skills (which by the way relies a lot on power). While teaching gun disarms, the instructors always say if they’re asking for your wallet, just give it to them. It’s if they decide that after you’ve given your wallet they want you to now get in the car with them, then what? As a person who trains in boxing or any form which doesn’t teach gun disarms, are you going to know how to redirect the line of fire, control the weapon, attack then take it away?

[pinkgloves]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote FearTheFighter:

While in general, I think SD is just for show. It’s really rare to get raped or mugged. Just give them the wallet and buy another one. SD just looks good on paper, but rarely does anyone get to try it out to see if it works. So it’s just a good workout and you do learn some skills, so it’s not a loss or anything.

I invite you to come visit Memphis. We are consistently in the top 10 most dangerous US cities list. Last year, there were about 1,584 violent crimes per 100,000. Memphis is known for all different types of violent crimes but the bulk of the reports are for aggravated assault, making up a total of 1,035 of the 1,584 violent crimes.

My Krav center is relatively small. We have about 100 people who train regularly. Of those 100: 2 have been shot, 1 has been stabbed, 3 have been sexually assaulted, and 1 has been car jacked. Do not tell me that self defense is just for show or that rapes and muggings are rare.

[catapult]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

Fear, you keep saying that Krav doesn’t have sparring but that’s not really true. At most gyms, sparring is available for all students and required once they get past white belt. Sure, you aren’t going to force a 70 year old grandma to spar but a young, fit beginner (like most MMA beginners) can spar if he wants to and should do so if he’s serious.

Back to the berserk thing, it’s kinda like the old boxer vs. brawler debate — Ali vs. Frazier. We’d all like to be Ali but a beginner doesn’t have the skills. If he’s attacked on the street, his attacker has probably been in plenty of street fights so he has the skills advantage. The beginner’s only hope of winning is to do a Frazier and to wade in trying to get in a lucky shot. He’ll probably lose anyway but he gave it his best effort. It’s all about playing the odds and the odds are worse if he tries to hang back and be technical.

[maddogmean]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

I guess in my mind the berserker attack isn’t necessarily a barrage of attacks hoping that something connects. But rather a non-stop offensive to give the attacker no opportunity to recover. A different approach than what is typical in sparring sessions. Of course an MMA fighter can execute the same offensive. But KM teaches you to fight for your life from day one. Like others have said…technique improves over time. Many people in KM talk about “the switch” that goes off when your life in on the line. The survivor mentality that is instilled in KM instruction.

Do I take the same approach when sparring? No. I’m focused on movement, defense, finding openings, etc.

Also, I have to disagree with you on the KO knife defense. I think everyone agrees that a knife is a nasty weapon and maybe all one can hope for is minimal damage. But trying to KO a knife attacker is a complete gamble, no matter your skill set.

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote MadDogMean:

Also, I have to disagree with you on the KO knife defense. I think everyone agrees that a knife is a nasty weapon and maybe all one can hope for is minimal damage. But trying to KO a knife attacker is a complete gamble, no matter your skill set.

Well let’s think about this. Traditionally, most SD systems focus on trying to stop the fast moving, knife hand that’s holding the knife. KM seems to like that dive forward with one arm blocking it at the wrist and the the fist punching. I have no problem training this and see it as an addition to my skills.

But for me, I’d rather use my Boxing speed, power and precision to get that jab out. When I spar Boxing against someone who’s new, I easily beat them with just the jab. They have all of their punches but can’t use any of it because they can’t get pass my jabs and footwork. And this is friendly sparring where I’m not trying to KO them with followup power combos. This would ALMOST be the same should they be holding a knife. Once I land that 1st jab, flushed to the face, the knife wielder will get disoriented. But my strikes wouldn’t stop there until he’s down. And I will get the jab out first.

Granted that the knife only needs to touch to cause damage, this also depends on the knife. I love knives. I have like 20 ranging from fighting knives, field knives, etc. but thugs on the streets usually have crappy ones that are not even sharpened regularly so a grazing slash due to being jabbed and disoriented, may not cause much damage.

I train knife fighting by shadowboxing with real knives using Boxing and always carry 1-2 knives with my 9mm (when legal) so I take it very seriously. But the only way to test out my theory is for someone with a rubber knife to spar me, wearing 16oz gloves and on go I get to try to KO them before they stab me. Unfair for the guy with the rubber knife because he’s getting hit for real so it’s hard to find partners to prove my technique.

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote catapult:

Fear, you keep saying that Krav doesn’t have sparring but that’s not really true.

I never said this. I said there’s not enough sparring and not almost never any hard sparring where you’re really trying to KO your partner.

quote :

Back to the berserk thing, it’s kinda like the old boxer vs. brawler debate — Ali vs. Frazier. The beginner’s only hope of winning is to do a Frazier and to wade in trying to get in a lucky shot.

Frazier is not a berserker brawler though. He was taught proper Boxing techniques and chose to be the aggressive, pressure fighter. Ali is the one with bad Boxing techniques, but his athleticism and ability to take headshots, made up for it. But Frazier’s aggressiveness is not going crazy. None of his coaches taught him to go swinging crazy and hope for the best when he was a beginner. They taught him to fight calmly and to Box, not Brawl.

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote PinkGloves:

I invite you to come visit Memphis. We are consistently in the top 10 most dangerous US cities list. Last year, there were about 1,584 violent crimes per 100,000. Memphis is known for all different types of violent crimes but the bulk of the reports are for aggravated assault, making up a total of 1,035 of the 1,584 violent crimes.

My Krav center is relatively small. We have about 100 people who train regularly. Of those 100: 2 have been shot, 1 has been stabbed, 3 have been sexually assaulted, and 1 has been car jacked. Do not tell me that self defense is just for show or that rapes and muggings are rare.

It’s still not that many that gets to prove their SD training. Were the 2 shot or shot at? Did the one that get stab able to pull off his KM training? And the 3 sexually assaulted, were they pinned down and raped or was it just someone grabbing their ass or something? And carjacking….just give them the car and get another one.

My family used to own a store in the Cherry Hill area of Baltimore, MD and we’re not Black. Memphis is not even close to being as violent. And I wasn’t just passing through, I freakin’ worked there almost everyday for 2 years. Look up Cherry Hill, Baltimore. That’s where that show, The Wire, was based out of. And yes, I had to carry guns concealed illegally for protection.

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote KMyoshi:

It’s if they decide that after you’ve given your wallet they want you to now get in the car with them, then what? As a person who trains in boxing or any form which doesn’t teach gun disarms, are you going to know how to redirect the line of fire, control the weapon, attack then take it away?

Yes, I agree that the KM gun disarm is good and lacking in MMA and Boxing. My original point was that, if you want to get really good at SD in the shortest time frame, like you were trying to say that that’s what KM is about, then my suggestion was to go to a Boxing gym in the ‘hood and tell them you want to become a “badass”…and they’ll throw you into the shark tank within 1-2 months for your first concussion vs. a fighter. This tests out your chin/head real fast and gets you used to fighting for your life better than any average KM or MMA.

KM during that first 1-2 months will teach you a ton of different techniques and SOME gun disarming, so you wouldn’t really be even close to being proficient at much in comparison to fighting for your life during hard sparring in a Boxing ring in the ‘hood.

[fearthefighter]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote KMyoshi:

:Deadhorse: MMA and KM have two different purposes but are not mutually exclusive.

I still stand by my point that MMA will achieve the same sought after survival skill set for the streets with the exception of gun disarming, which is not that difficult to train.

quote :

I’m just referring to not trying to destroy your sparring partner during sparring sessions.

But this is how you get good and test out your chin. I’m not suggesting letting noobs do this nor put a noob into the ring vs. a fighter to get KO’ed….although this happens often at pure Boxing gyms, because it works in toughening people up, which I think is greatly lacking in KM gyms.

quote :

“It is really rare to get raped and robbed with a beat down?” Tell that to these people. Assholes usually rape or rob people after some type of physical coercion, whether it be with a weapon or physical violence.

It’s still very, very rare. It sucks for those people, but still extremely rare. That’s why sparring for full KO’s is probably the best way to test out if you’ve got what it takes or will you just fold up into the fetal position and get raped. Going crazy vs. kick shields won’t cut it.

quote :

I did not know that. It makes sense to spar that hard when you have a fight coming up to make sure you’re use to the physical beating but on the flip side, I also figured it wouldn’t make sense because what if you get injured prior to the fight? I’ve trained at an MMA gym for a few months and was only there once a week but since I wasn’t training to compete, we never sparred hard enough for anyone to get knocked out.

In general, you don’t spar hard 1.5-2 weeks before the fight. The last week is mostly hard cardio. We usually have at least 2 months to prepare for the fight. But yes, sometimes fighters have to pull out due to injuries and many times still fights with injuries but rarely at 100% health. This is pretty common. Sparring hard is mostly with grappling and 16oz gloves. But hard sparring is not everyday, even when preparing for a fight. But damn, Boxers at pure Boxing gyms do. Whenever I visit boxing gyms, it’s almost always going for the KO when equally matched up or close.

quote :

Okay tough guy bow1

Well you’re the one who thinks that your nut grabbing makes that big of a deal vs. an experienced fighter. I’m just saying that it probably won’t help you.

quote :

There is nothing that states to always take the fight to the ground in the ring, but there’s a huge percentage of matches that do go to the ground, round after round. Could be because one person doesn’t have good stand up game and doesn’t like getting beat on by kicks and punches to the face, maybe they’re tired and can catch their breath while in side control, guard… etc.

It depends on the fighter and what he’s good at and what he knows through research about the other fighter. Training to fight MMA implies that you should at least know how to strike standup. If I’m lighting someone up in the street while standing, why would I stop doing what’s working? If I’m getting my ass beat standing up and the world is spinning, then it’s a pretty good idea to take it to the ground and try something else rather than get knocked the F out and be on the ground anyway…but worse, unconscious while going down and smacking my head once more once hitting the cement….then who knows what happens afterward.

[bear34]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

Someone is this thread must drive a really big car.

[don]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote bear34:

Someone is this thread must drive a really big car.

[cjs-dad]

Re: Groin Kicks is all there is

quote FearTheFighter:

I don’t know who CJ’s Dad is, but he sounds like someone who’s of a higher level, which proved my point that it’s of a higher level to fight/spar calmly and not to go crazy with screaming and yelling.

I’m CJ’s Dad :wav:

I’m getting a lot of enjoyment from this thread, and although I have my own view points on the subject I think I’ll continue to sit on the sidelines and watch the show.

Carry on~

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