new gun/knife disarms

[don]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

quote ari-free:

I’m more interested in listening than talking.

That’s what you CLAIM but your attitude says otherwise…

But I assume a book written by Imi and Yanilov depicts real krav maga. Is it?

It’s a BOOK. It’s not even a Video.

IF you had made a dedicated effort to learn and train KM (OR INSERT WHATEVER MA/MMA school/style here) and then said that you personally had difficulty making this or that technique work for you, then I would totally understand and respect that.

OR, IF you had said based upon this or that (your) previous training and experience, you believe this or that technique to be unrealistic or impractical or ineffective, etc, then that would also give you a little something to stand on.

“I read a book” doesn’t give you CRAP towards a legitimate or educated opinion…

[kevinmack]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

There is one knife defense in KM that uses a kick to the chin(head). It is not THE defense for a knife stab. It is an advanced defense in blue belt to be used at middle range. The kick is actually the defense…it pulls the body out of the way of the stab. You will not miss due to the nature of the attack that this defense is made for. There are a series of defenses in blue belt that use offensive movements to move the body out of the line of attack. Basically using one movement that would have required two in the earlier levels.
If I had to describe the belt levels as themes this is what I would say:

Yellow Belt: tends to focus on forward attacks. One attacker in front of you,,attacking fwd,etc.(fundamental basics)

Orange Belt: you start thinking 360 degrees. Dealing with attackers to your side and behind you. Side kicks,back kicks,rear elbows.(Fundamental basics)

Green Belt: Combinations,tactics,Chaining attacks. Putting all thee levels together. This is the last section of the basic fundamental techniques.Green belt used to be the minimum level to be an instructor.

Blue Belt: More advanced techniques that require superior timing and speed. Defenses that required two hands or two movements in the previous levels are stripped down to one movement. A concentration on body defenses. Weapons(stick and knife)

Brown Belt: Weapons.(handgun)Multiple attackers. Intro to military techniques. Advanced striking(kicks)

Black belt: a number of defenses that answer the question “how do you fight someone who knows Krav Maga.Weapons.long gun.third party defense. Military applications(sentry removal,etc) very advanced striking techniques for multiple attackers and physical fitness.

This is just a general,superficial description of the themes. This became apparent to me over the years while teaching and its something that I tried to make more obvious when I recently edited our schools curriculum.

So..checking out a book that described a few techniques out of the context of the whole system is like criticizing Apple for their use of a certain microchip in the iPad without knowing how to build an iPad and never having used one yourself.

[lennykravitz]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

First two vids are tactical Krav Maga guys (Itay Gil aligned). I doubt they’ll ever say something nice about ‘traditional’ Krav Maga.

[ari-free]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

quote Don:

It’s a BOOK. It’s not even a Video.

IF you had made a dedicated effort to learn and train KM (OR INSERT WHATEVER MA/MMA school/style here) and then said that you personally had difficulty making this or that technique work for you, then I would totally understand and respect that.

OR, IF you had said based upon this or that (your) previous training and experience, you believe this or that technique to be unrealistic or impractical or ineffective, etc, then that would also give you a little something to stand on.

“I read a book” doesn’t give you CRAP towards a legitimate or educated opinion…

I also watched Krav Maga-On the Edge. Yes, the high kicks are there.
My brother studied Filipino knife fighting and I learned from him. Do you know how they will try to attack, feint and redirect?

[ari-free]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

quote KMyoshi:

If someone flicks their hands near your face, what is your first instinctive reaction? You flinch and move your head away.

Right so if you try to kick someone in the head, he will flinch, you will miss and he will take advantage of your lack of balance and mobility. He can grab your leg, stab it or just rush you from the side while you are bringing your leg back.

[kmyoshi]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

quote ari-free:

Right so if you try to kick someone in the head, he will flinch, you will miss and he will take advantage of your lack of balance and mobility. He can grab your leg, stab it or just rush you from the side while you are bringing your leg back.

Are we even talking about the same defense against the same attack here? I suppose he can also do a number of other things, in which case that presents a different scenario which will need a different defense to overcome that obstacle.

Read Kevin Mack’s post

quote KevinMack:

There is one knife defense in KM that uses a kick to the chin(head). It is not THE defense for a knife stab. It is an advanced defense in blue belt to be used at middle range. The kick is actually the defense…it pulls the body out of the way of the stab. You will not miss due to the nature of the attack that this defense is made for. There are a series of defenses in blue belt that use offensive movements to move the body out of the line of attack. Basically using one movement that would have required two in the earlier levels.

[ari-free]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

quote KMyoshi:

Are we even talking about the same defense against the same attack here? I suppose he can also do a number of other things, in which case that presents a different scenario which will need a different defense to overcome that obstacle.

Read Kevin Mack’s post

TKD teaches flying jump kicks. Some BJJ people like to do flying arm bars. They are advanced moves and they may work sometimes. But I thought krav maga would stay away from moves like that. Keep it safe: kick to the stomach or groin if you are going to kick.

It made me doubt if the other techniques were really tested against attackers who knew what they were doing.

[kmyoshi]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

You are right, Krav Maga does discourage the use of head kicks (high kicks in general i.e: shoulder and above) as there’s a high possibility that you will miss and/or you’re not flexible enough. However you stated it as if a high kick to the head is the only defense KM has against a knife attack and therefore all other KM techniques are not worth looking into.

Like your other examples with the TKD and BJJ “flashy” moves, a high kick to the head can be used if the situation calls for it. And to clarify what scenario I’ve been referring to: If an attacker is coming straight at you (you’re facing him) and attacking in the typical over head/ice pick stabbing fashion, a kick to the head or the chest would be suitable. The kick would not be a high round kick but would be a rising kick to the head or an offensive front kick.

[don]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

quote ari-free:

I also watched Krav Maga-On the Edge. Yes, the high kicks are there.

Ok, so you read a book AND watched a video. BFD.

My brother studied Filipino knife fighting and I learned from him. Do you know how they will try to attack, feint and redirect?

Um, I think I have some idea – I’ve been training in FMA on and off since 1988. How long have YOU been learning from your brother? How long has HE been training in FMA? Which systems of FMA has he been training in? With/under whom? Has he been certified as an instructor in any FMA? If so, by whom? How would YOU defend a non-linear knife attack?

[don]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

quote ari-free:

It made me doubt if the other techniques were really tested against attackers who knew what they were doing.

And why the hell would you think the techniques in videos that you linked to Were really tested??????? :confused:

[kevinmack]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

I have trouble explaining some techniques with words only so I shot a quick video response. I am only going to leave the video up for a week or so. FYI..I tend to shoot these videos after a night of teaching classes…I ask a student to stay and help so I have to be quick and get it all in one shot especially cause it is shot on a phone. So sometimes it is hard to see the details and get the right angles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKdhl4UARYY

Oh…and at one point when I say “baseball bat” I meant “baseball”

[kmky]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

I have visited about a dozen Krav schools in the US and I’ve never seen the disarms taught the way the videos claim “a lot of Krav schools” teach. I’ve seen students who are first learning the technique do them incorrectly that way but that isn’t how they are taught. I have watched the ckm videos and they do a gun disarm similar to the incorrect way shown in the first video.

I do not the have the original Imi & Eyal book so I cannot comment on the high kick except to say that is not the first option that is taught in any of the Krav schools I’ve visited or in the school that I teach at. The high kick is just another tool in the toolbox, it isn’t the only tool in the toolbox to use for a knife disarm.

What you are doing is similar to me watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyCU7sMgfk0 and assuming that is the only way that BJJ deals with that situation

[ari-free]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

quote Don:

And why the hell would you think the techniques in videos that you linked to Were really tested??????? :confused:

I don’t know if they were really tested. That’s why I posted here, to get a second opinion. Just like when you go to another doctor when the first one says you may need surgery.

This is not a competition. I don’t want to prepare for a life or death situation by perfectly practicing flawed techniques.

[ari-free]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

quote Don:

Um, I think I have some idea – I’ve been training in FMA on and off since 1988. How long have YOU been learning from your brother? How long has HE been training in FMA? Which systems of FMA has he been training in? With/under whom? Has he been certified as an instructor in any FMA? If so, by whom? How would YOU defend a non-linear knife attack?

If you think you know then you should just answer whether Krav defenses will work instead of playing these “my daddy can beat your daddy” games. If I knew what works, I’d be telling you, not asking you.

[catapult]

Re: new gun/knife disarms

quote :

But I’ve read (and own) the book “Krav Maga: How to Defend Yourself Against Armed Assault” authored by Imi Sde-Or and Eyal Yanilov.
I also watched Krav Maga-On the Edge.

If you are going to judge and try to learn the Krav system from books and videos, you owe it to yourself to choose good books and videos. Knowing a subject very well and writing a book or producing a video are very different skills, especially when you’re trying to do it in a foreign language.

A good book: Complete Krav Maga by Darren Levine and John Whitman
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Krav-Maga-Self-Defense-Techniques/dp/1569755736/

A good DVD set: Mastering Krav Maga by David Kahn
http://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Krav-Self-Defense-Beginner-Advanced/dp/B0052T6XLY/

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