- This topic has 78 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Re: urban krav maga???
Check out the curriculum people. He may not show retzev in the tiny little bit you get from youtube, but retzev(continuos attack) is part of the whole process. Most of what I see here is a couple of guys that saw a short video of a defense in an URBAN setting and are pissed off that someone, (who has more years of training than either of them) who dares to use the name Krav Maga in there title. I would just as soon you take it as a compliment. And not get so arrogant as to think that you and you alone have the only Krav Maga training techniques out there. If I may say, you get alittle possessive over the use of Krav Maga. Again I do not have issues with opinions, as long as there informed opinions. Stewart McGill is an upper level instructor, whose training came from Israel through Haim Gidon. I don’t know of any other place where the roots to the system could come any closer than that. Remember that Darren was sent to the US to get KM started here. Yet before that Haim Gidon was given the task to keep the system going forward from Imi (Sd Or) Lichtenfeld himself. It is an incredible insult to put this system anywhere near that of CKM. For the record I am not defending, I am stating facts. Stewart needs no defense, he has the credentials!
Re: urban krav maga???
JL,
The videos I saw were from Stuarts website. Not youtube. So these were the videos that he selected. He chose to show the defenses from straight punch and hook punch which look nothing like Krav Maga. So in the interest of being consistent I have to say that while Stuart may be very skilled, his system does not appear to be Krav Maga. There were defenses made without immediate and simultaneous counter attacks, these along with retzev, are fundamentally important to Krav Maga.
Am I pissed off? No. In fact I wish Stuart all the best. I am just pointing out some differences based on the videos that he made available to us on his website.
Re: urban krav maga???
The following was taken directly from the Urban Krav Maga website in its description there is direct evidence that this is not Krav Maga. In fact it is a combination of other system’s techniques being taught with “an Israeli mentality”.
This system is a hybrid. Read on and make your own judgements.
About Urban Krav Maga
The founders of Urban Krav Maga can draw on many years of experience in the following fighting systems as well as various styles of Krav Maga: Karate; Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Traditional Jiu Jitsu, Aikido, Boxing, Muay Thai, Tae Kwan Do and MMA.We continued training in some of these systems after we became instructors in various Israeli fighting systems.This training continued to inform our teaching and this, along with our real world experience led us to adapt and modify techniques, combining the education we had gained in the Israeli systems with that from other systems we’d experienced – we did this that which we we believe to be the original and true spirit of Krav Maga (hence why we maintain the name). We found that these modified and innovative techniques were working well for our students – this was the beginning of Urban Krav Maga.
Basically we wanted to teach a system that:
1. Combined the best elements of the systems referred to above with the Israeli mentality of “this is the problem – what is the solution?” as opposed to the more abstract, indirect approach of many traditional arts.
2. Contained a range of techniques that were not dependent on punching power and/or brute strength. All techniques need to work against stronger, heavier, taller etc opponents. We also acknowledge that different students sometimes need different or modified solutions so there is a personal development approach for the student.
3. Was genuinely collegiate and evolutionary in its approach. There’s a very wide range of experience in the Technical Committee, everybody has a say in how techniques develop and, crucially, nobody is hidebound by ego or adherence to tradition – the one priority is to make techniques work as well as possible for as many people as possible. We also listen to students – the Genesis of the system actually lay in our observations re what worked for them under pressure, what didn’t work and our debates re how we could improve.
4. Recognised the importance of pre-emptive strikes for self-defence – action always beats reaction.
5. Took a genuinely scenario-based approach. In Urban Krav Maga, the core syllabus is based around the disciplines and techniques needed to defend the 10 most common street attacks. These are listed in frequency order here.
The core syllabus also contains a range of techniques applicable to female self-defence, grappling (stand-up and on the ground), fighting/sparring techniques and weapons defences.
Our aim is to equip the student as soon as possible to defend themselves against the most common attacks. Once the student has mastered these techniques more difficult scenarios are addressed to build a support system that will enable the student to deal with almost any situation. By teaching concepts through techniques students are taught how to read a situation and react/respond accordingly, even if they’ve not experienced the exact same thing in training. Giving students the ability to improvise is an important element of our training.
Awareness, avoidance and pre-emption are placed high in order of priority – but we recognise that you can’t always avoid or run away from problems so we teach everything that is needed for self defence when it’s necessary in all environments, including highly confined, crowded spaces like chip shops. “Chip Shop Krav Maga” was our working title for the new system but we thought it may look a little odd on a t-shirt and not translate well for those countries that call a chip a crisp…
We do not make any claims that our techniques are used by any military organisation. We’re happy for them to be judged on their merits, not assumed to be good because of their supposedly being taught to a regular army or Special Forces Unit. We make no apologies for this civilian approach: a knife defence based on somebody attacking like they were making a committed bayonet thrust will not be so effective as one that is based on somebody stabbing with an aggressive pumping notion with fast recoil. As stated we retain the term Krav Maga as our approach reflects that on which Krav Maga was originally founded and we are of course indebted to the experiences we have gained training with the various Israeli Fighting Systems.
Re: urban krav maga???
No one is disparaging his credentials. But if you believe that “Krav Maga” means the system that Imi created, then what he teaches in his system is not “Krav Maga” regardless of who he learned from and when. Might he put some “Krav Maga” techniques into his classes? Sure, but if his system doesn’t stick to principles then don’t call the system “Krav Maga”.
What makes Krav Maga unique and effective is it’s principles, far more than it’s techniques. Within those principles, there is slot of room for evolution, growth, and change in techniques. Without those guiding principles, you can put any martial arts technique in and call it Krav Maga and no one would be the wiser. Without the principles, there would be no Krav Maga.
Luckily, the principles are easy to learn and even easier to spot when not adhered to. Start with this question:
“Does the technique deal with the immediate threat first and counter attack simultaneously/immediately” If the answer is “NO” on a random sample of techniques, then the principles are not there therefore neither is Krav Maga.Re: urban krav maga???
quote blanker:judo is part of the genesis of krav maga and is the magor component in the its ground game and takedowns along with all the best modern martial arts including brazilian jujitsu and sambo.like a knee kick could be from muay thai, a punch from karate , and so on.. like eyal says, there is only so many ways you can punch.
Re: urban krav maga???
Dear All,
This may be a slight aside but what I’m interested in, is what people believe the principles of Krav Maga to be. This thread keeps talking about the principles and all I’ve heard mention is retzef (continuous attack etc), simultaneous defense & counter and attacking soft tissue. If these are the only Krav Maga principles, then Krav Maga is no different to 95% of other modern martial arts. Rather than just say another system is not Krav Maga will somebody have an attempt at defining what Krav Maga is?
C’mon guys, this is somebodys chance to shine on this forum :), Let’s put the flag in the ground and define this ‘principle based’ system on the principles that it is founded upon…and see how other systems stack up…
…Or is Krav Maga just a name that can be claimed by anyone for anything e.g. Moni Aizik.
Re: urban krav maga???
quote machbanai:Dear All,This may be a slight aside but what I’m interested in, is what people believe the principles of Krav Maga to be. This thread keeps talking about the principles and all I’ve heard mention is retzef (continuous attack etc), simultaneous defense & counter and attacking soft tissue. If these are the only Krav Maga principles, then Krav Maga is no different to 95% of other modern martial arts. Rather than just say another system is not Krav Maga will somebody have an attempt at defining what Krav Maga is?
C’mon guys, this is somebodys chance to shine on this forum :), Let’s put the flag in the ground and define this ‘principle based’ system on the principles that it is founded upon…and see how other systems stack up…
…Or is Krav Maga just a name that can be claimed by anyone for anything e.g. Moni Aizik.
I’m going to take a stab at two points, based on my own OMA experience (other martial arts). I have black belts in 2 other disciplines, and have some (modest) insight on principles.
I’d like to talk about the part about simultaneous defend and counter-attack. Many Korean styles like Hapkido, Han Mu Do, among others, don’t necessarily have a simultaneous counter attack. Many body defenses and joint escapes have the defense first, and then a counter, or a ‘control’ technique.
We don’t have ‘control’ techniques in Krav like other styles. I would wager that several other classical Asian arts are similar, as Hapkido parallels Aikido, etc. From my perspective of 15+ years in various martial arts and fighting systems, this idea of simultaneous defend/counterattack is more unique than we know.
As far as Retzev goes, in other disciplines (from my experience), you execute the technique and stop. My example for this is choke from the front, one hand pluck. Han Mu Do has the exact defense as part of one of the Oht Sul series of defenses. (I can’t remember the name of the specific set) It is also in the Hapkido curriculum, and I’d wager its in Aikido, too.
I performed this technique literally thousands of times in class in my pre-Krav studies, and I never ONCE followed it up with combatives like we do in Krav. It’s just not how you’re trained in that system. Nor do they train that way in Hapkido schools…I’ve seen it personally. Again, it seem logical to follow it up with combatives, but if you don’t train that way, it will seem foreign to you if you’re pressed to do so.
Retzev is also more unique than some of us may realize.
As far as hitting soft tissue….since many martial arts involve some sort of competition or sport, hard strikes to soft targets (i.e. eyes, throat, groin, nose, etc.) are frequently frowned upon. I won’t say that’s always the case, nor is it always the case at some schools that teach classical martial arts. However, I would argue this does occur in a majority of classical martial arts schools. I base that on my own impirical research over the last several years, and conversations with other M.A. practitioners.
Macbanai makes a good point in the original question. I hope I’ve been able to add some clarity to why I believe that our principles do differentiate us from martial arts and other fighting systems. I know there are several instructors here that come from other arts and/or fighting systems that can give their own insight based on their direct experience.
It’s well worth our time to discuss it here, even if it is something of a side-thread to the original discussion around Urban Krav. Perhaps Sean would consider creating a separate thread for this new discussion?
Peace,
Mario
Re: urban krav maga???
Nice post, Mario. I’d like to hear what other instructors consider to be the core principles of Krav Maga. It would be interesting to see if everyone agrees. I have mine ready to go, but I’d like to see others. 😉
Re: urban krav maga???
Very nice post Mario.
And please believe me when I say I try and consider all the responses in earnest. At the end of the day we all are trying to help people be more prepared and more confident in there abilities facing down fear and attacks on our persons.
One thing I would like to say is that in making a DVD some of the finer points (retzev) or differences are left out simply due to cost or editing. Not an excuse, just true. From first hand discussions with Stewart and David Kahn, retzev is a huge part of KM (IKMA,UKM)and so is breaking away from the attack as SOON AS POSSIBLE, when the threat is extinguished. I think in the DVD portions I saw, that is what Stewart and his guys are trying to portray. (do not stand around admiring your work).
You could certainly stay and stomp the crap out of someone after the threat is gone, but then you and not the attacker will be prosecuted. (especially in the US) They call it excessive force.I just wanted to let all of the posters know that these guys are from Krav Maga out of Israel (IKMA) and have researched the most common attacks on the streets of the UK and are addressing different techniques that will help a novice or a practitioner of KM survive certain attacks.
Although I don’t see eye to eye on all the possessiveness of KM in the US I can see that your hearts are all in the right place 😉 JL
Re: urban krav maga???
With regard to the principles….
1. There are no Rules
2. Overwhelm the attacker with ruthless agression, Defend and counter at the same time!
3. Be aware of other threats
4. Use any and all means to survive
5. Don’t get hurt
6. Escape when the opportunity presents itself
7. When clear of the threat check yourself for any unknown injuries
8. Call Law enforcement first to report the incident as the victimSpecific training rules are:
Create a stressful realistic enviornement for the student
Encourage the student to work through mistakes
In fact tell them to embrace the concept of making a mistake and driving on
Always hit targets at full speed
Do not “engage in boxing”, no posing, no taking pictures only overwhelm and get out
Understand the +1 factor, it’s the attacker +1 other thing that you don’t know about that is the danger
Retzev-Continuous Combatives must happen at all timesJust my key points
Re: urban krav maga???
I was thinking of the more specific technique based principles e.g. if a threat/attack is life threatening attack the attack/threat, if the threat/attack is non-life threatening attack the attacker.
e.g. a choke or strangle is potentially life threatening therefore you need to attack the choke or strangle (plucking defenses), if the threat is a lapel grab (non-life threatening) you can attack the attacker e.g. eye strike.
Krav Maga is an evolving and developing system and ‘new’ techniques or developments need to be assessed as to their merit. Stress testing is one way but they must also adhere/align to certain principles or any technique could be adopted.
Equally, I believe we will see many ‘new’ Krav Maga systems (Urban being just one – these guys at least seem to be honest & transparent in the way they advertise and have been very clear about what they are not, allowing a potential student to make an informed choice…unlike certain ‘Krav Maga’ organisations).
At one point there was just the IKMA, then there was the KMAA & the IKMF all headed by Imi’s students (some more senior than others). All of these Krav Magas look and taste different. Are they still all ‘Krav Maga’? They can all trace their routes back to Imi – the founder – in some way. Have they all had their continued evolution in Israel? No. Are they all based on the same core principles? That is probably the main question to ask as this will determine how they will evolve and develop (as they must to remain relevant).
It is easy for us to say this isn’t Krav Maga but a lot harder it seems to say what is. My question to the forum is:
If I was to come along with a technique I’d seen, developed etc and show it was more effective than a current Krav Maga (any association) technique how would you judge its merit and ascertain whether it was Krav Maga or not? What methods would you use? What principles would it have to adhere to?
I’m not knocking anything on Psyop’s list as the points he makes are all valid however in this example I can’t test a technique against, ‘use any and all means to survive’ because that would allow any technique to be accepted. I point this out not to question the validity of the principle he made but to try and direct the debate.
If we were to take the Urban Krav Maga techniques 1-by-1, what principles would we apply to say that the techniques are Krav Maga (follow the principles) or are not?
I hope this make sense and indicates what I was hoping for in answer to my question.
Re: urban krav maga???
Those are good points, Machbanai. I would like to counter your example (choke is life threatening, lapel grab isn’t) with something we do in Krav. Take bearhugs for example. There is no imminent threat for us to attack…however, we STILL attack the attacker. We will usually hit soft targets, most obviously the groin, or the face, depending on the type of bearhug being applied.
As to your other point of incorporating new techniques if they are better than current ones…this discussion happens all the time at the KM Worldwide national training center in LA. New techniques are being evaluated against current one and if some are better adapted to counter the scenario in question, we will adopt it and disseminate that knowledge to all KMWW affiliates.
A key take-away we give to students who come to us with prior M.A. experience is to always use what works. If a student comes to us and asks a good question about whether another technique they know can be used…our stated point to make is that if it doesn’t violate the principles of Krav Maga, it’s totally fair game to use.
I don’t agree that you are limited in testing techniques against “use any and all means to survive.” If an opportunity to attack appears, you take it. To me, that sounds like Retzev. Any technique you know, or any object at hand for use, can and should be used if it helps you get away safely.
That is totally in line with principles 1 & 2 that Psyops lists in his most recent post.
Regarding your own comments: If I was to come along with a technique I’d seen, developed etc and show it was more effective than a current Krav Maga (any association) technique how would you judge its merit and ascertain whether it was Krav Maga or not? What methods would you use? What principles would it have to adhere to?
Whatever the available technique under consideration….does it allow you to counterattack at the same time you defend? Yes? Good!
Is there a rule limiting where/when that technique can be used? No? Good!
Does the technique limit your ability to counter other nearby threats in situations where multiple threats could exist? No? Good!
Is it useful to help you survive the initial attack? Yes? Good!
Does applying the technique minimize your exposure to being hurt, or the length of time the attacker is an active threat to you? Yes? Good!
After applying the technique, is there a clear opportunity to disengage and evaluate the situation? Yes? Good!
The last 2 principles Psyops lists….I would argue those you determine after you are clear of the immediate situation. 🙂
Machbanai, I would argue that this is the sort of logic being considered to determine whether or not a potential new technique to the curriculum should be added. Are these the only criteria used to make such a determination? Probably not…and I’m not privy to those discussions at KMWW. Maybe one day! 🙂
I will say you raise very eye-opening questions (GOOD ones), and I hope the discussion continues to be fruitful. I think I do understand the point you’re coming from. I would welcome hearing your thoughts on the last few posts.
Peace,
Mario
Re: urban krav maga???
I would also like to hear from Psyops on Machbanai’s last post, too. His (Psyops) posts are always good food for thought on these forums.
Mario
Re: urban krav maga???
Hi Saruotoko,
Sorry if I wasn’t clear, the example you give is adhering to the Krav Maga principal of attack the attacker when the attack is not life threatening:
“Take bearhugs for example. There is no imminent threat for us to attack…however, we STILL attack the attacker” – my point, a bear hug isn’t life threatening so you attack the attacker.
I think we’re in agreement that this is a Krav Maga principle? I probably didn’t express myself clearly enough.
“A key take-away we give to students who come to us with prior M.A. experience is to always use what works. If a student comes to us and asks a good question about whether another technique they know can be used…our stated point to make is that if it doesn’t violate the principles of Krav Maga, it’s totally fair game to use. ”
What I’m trying to understand is what people on this forum believe those principles to be. We keep saying ‘principles’ and that we are a ‘principle’ based system and yet we don’t seem to be declaring what those principles are by which techniques can be judged. Until we do that I don’t think we’re in a position to say Urban Krav Maga is not Krav Maga.
The old adage, “it may not look like an elephant but if it’s got four legs and a tail it must be”, comes to mind. I’m not trying to be picky but at the moment the principles I’ve seen listed would apply to Senshido, Bauer or any other modern self defense. If Krav Maga is different/exceptional (as those of us who teach it believes it is) then what makes it Krav Maga?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
