urban krav maga???

[olivier-d92]

Re: urban krav maga???

Hi,

Very interesting thread.

From my understanding, I think that besides the principles that have already mentioned here, we can add:

– transitioning as soon as possible from defensive to offensive (although it might have already mentioned)

– initial defenses using the instinctive response of your body (for example, in the case of a choke from the front, the most likely reflex will be for your hands to travel up towards your throat so might as well plucking)

– techniques have to be simple enough so everybody, regardless of age, sex or fitness conditions can perform them efficiently.

– do whatever it takes to get out of it safely, whether it’s finishing up the fight or creating an opening where one can run to safety.

I am sure I am missing some and others will chime in.

Another thing too but I am not sure if it can be consider a principle of the system but more of a training method: always train from a situation of disadvantage.

Best,

Olivier

[saruotoko]

Re: urban krav maga???

quote machbanai:

Hi Saruotoko,

Sorry if I wasn’t clear, the example you give is adhering to the Krav Maga principal of attack the attacker when the attack is not life threatening:

“Take bearhugs for example. There is no imminent threat for us to attack…however, we STILL attack the attacker” – my point, a bear hug isn’t life threatening so you attack the attacker.

I think we’re in agreement that this is a Krav Maga principle? I probably didn’t express myself clearly enough.

“A key take-away we give to students who come to us with prior M.A. experience is to always use what works. If a student comes to us and asks a good question about whether another technique they know can be used…our stated point to make is that if it doesn’t violate the principles of Krav Maga, it’s totally fair game to use. ”

What I’m trying to understand is what people on this forum believe those principles to be. We keep saying ‘principles’ and that we are a ‘principle’ based system and yet we don’t seem to be declaring what those principles are by which techniques can be judged. Until we do that I don’t think we’re in a position to say Urban Krav Maga is not Krav Maga.

The old adage, “it may not look like an elephant but if it’s got four legs and a tail it must be”, comes to mind. I’m not trying to be picky but at the moment the principles I’ve seen listed would apply to Senshido, Bauer or any other modern self defense. If Krav Maga is different/exceptional (as those of us who teach it believes it is) then what makes it Krav Maga?

You’re right in that I initially mis-read your point about attacking the attacker when the threat wasn’t imminent. I’ll wait to reply to the thread until we get a little more input. And yeah, I think we’re getting closer to the answer you were looking for. 🙂

Mario

[saruotoko]

Re: urban krav maga???

Oh, and although I think the principles listed here are a little generic, I’m comfortable with how they are written: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_maga

I think Psyops list is more appropriate and applies across the assault time-continuum (initial attack through disengagement and/or contact of L.E.O.), but I think the list on Wikipedia is broad enough for the purposes of our discussion.

Thoughts, ladies & gentlemen?

Mario

[relli-kant]

Re: urban krav maga???

Principles of Krav Maga as listed in the “Complete Krav Maga” by John Whitman and Darren Levine:

– Techniques should be movements based on natural instincts.

– Techniques must address the immediate danger.

– Techniques must defend and counterattack simultaneously.

– One defense must work against a variety of attacks.

– The system should be integrated so that movements learned in one area of the system complement, rather than contradict, movements in another area.

– Techniques must be accessible to the average person, not just athletes.

– Techniques must work from a position of disadvantage.

– Training must include the stress experienced in real attacks.

The book also states that these principles guide KMWW’s training and assessment of techniques. For example, they would test a new technique not on their best, most athletic students, but rather on their weakest, to see if it would work for them as well.

Or they would measure to see how well a defense would work if they are late defending, rather than early.

Same with the other principles, potentially new techniques are looked at in regards to those principles and its then decided if they would fit the bill.

Now, there are too few videos on the website to judge the whole system, but let’s take their knife defense: It doesn’t seem to have a strong, immediate counter (maybe the hit to the sternum while turning, but would this stop the attacker?). It seems to rely on joint manipulation (arm lock). Could this be done by a much smaller person against a larger one? Also, is this defense similar to other defenses they have in their system?

For example, in regular KM, we would defend the same threat by grabbing the attacker’s hand that’s holding the knife and then pushing it forward, into him, while giving a simultaneous punch, then going to two-handed control, giving more knees as counters. That initial redirection and punch is very similar to gun defense from the same position and would adhere to the principle of the system being integrated. The counters used in the regular KM technique seem to be faster, stronger and more direct than in the technique shown in the video. I’ve actually done the regular KM technique against bigger, stronger people in class and it works well, even under those circumstances. I have not tried the technique in the video, but I’m not sure how well it would work against a bigger person, as joint locks can be tricky, even if done against same-sized opponents.

I’m also not sure how their scenario-based training would work. Are they showing you the ten most common attacks first? But then what if you run into the eleventh most common attack (and are thus unprepared)? Also, what constitutes a “common attack”? What if there are bystanders? Does this take place inside or outside? Are there obstacles in the way? Do you have friends with you? Are you drunk? Is the attacker drunk? Is he armed? Are his friends armed? It seems that one problem with scenarios is, they can so easily change. However, if you have principles to guide you, they can be applied in a variety of scenarios.

[psyops]

Re: urban krav maga???

It’s interesting…

The very question that is posed is an indication of the uniqueness of Krav Maga. There are very few systems in the world which has so much discussion of new techniques. Most systems shun the idea of new techniques being introduced. They are stuck trying to use techniques that worked against Samurai swords and modify them for gun defense. This is the true difference with Krav Maga.

Mario’s post was bang on. I will only add my .02. The definition of what is Krav Maga and what is not Krav Maga must not be compromised. That is the line of the defense and corresponding Retzev must follow the principles laid out by Imi and translated by those who are much more qualified than I am to make such an asesment. Incidentally my friend David Kahn is certainly more qualified than I am in these matters.

But we must strive to protect our system from those who wish to put the name Krav Maga into their own system without first understanding what a Krav Maga practioner is all about. Mr. Mcgill is a Kravist, no doubt about that. However I think that multiple styles of Krav Maga that don’t follow our very basic principles is not a good thing for those of us who teach for a living and devote ourselves as students.

I mean we already have enough TKD schools teaching “Krav Maga” in a sub par fashion. No I am not picking on TKD schools I am just using this as an example because there are many stories about this type of thing.

So to the heart of the matter now. Can we adapt other techniques from different systems and incorporate those into our Krav Maga? Yes if the principles are in fact adhered to. Again immediate coutner attack, getting off line, retzev and immediate escape.

Should we take from a sport based BJJ system and use those techniques in the street? No. I don’t think so. Why? Because the average BJJ school is not focused on multiple attackers and assailants with weapons. So to adopt their training techniques and more importantly their mentality is counter productive. However to look at a technique and infuse it with a Krav Maga principle and then test the technique to ensure that 90% of the students can perform it 99% of the time regardless of the attackers size, and then of course making sure that the aforementioned principles are adhered to, then I say its Krav Maga.

But we can’t call BJJ Krav Maga just because we like some of their techniques. Kung Fu is not Hop Kido and Hop Kido is not Escrima. They are distinct systems with specific requirements. So while Krav Maga is an open system it is not chop suey. Meaning that Chop Suey can never be confused with Prime Rib. Both are food dishes. Both are tasty. However they are uniquely different.

Lastly,

I have been one of the most outspoken critics against clowns like Moni Aizik. I am not putting Mr. McGill in Aizik’s class. All I am saying is that if he has developed his own take on various techniques including Krav Maga. Perhaps for posterity’s sake another name would avoid confusion and not seem like a blatant attempt to capitalize on the good name of Krav Maga. All of this being said I think that our system is so special that it creates these conversations. This is truly awesome.

[jamesh-d30]

Re: urban krav maga???

quote machbanai:

…If these are the only Krav Maga principles, then Krav Maga is no different to 95% of other modern martial arts. Rather than just say another system is not Krav Maga will somebody have an attempt at defining what Krav Maga is?

When answering this “challenge”, don’t loose sight that machbanai just made a statement that would have you assume he is an expert on 95% of all modern martial arts and is in a position to judge the core parts of all of those systems against your statements about Krav Maga.

No offense machbanai, but it may have served you better to just ask your question.

[machbanai]

Re: urban krav maga???

Hi James,

As they say, “87.5% of statistics are made up on the spur of the moment”. The point I was making was that of the 3 principles that had been listed Krav Maga was not unique amongst martial arts/self defense systems based on these alone (the exact number, my exposure to which etc, I haven’t yet done the math).

I apologise if anyone interpreted the comment as me trying to make myself to be some kind of expert on reality based self defense. I wouldn’t class myself an expert in the one I study/teach i.e. Krav Maga, which is why I come on these forums to learn.

I didn’t mean this post to appear a challenge, merely for us to have a discussion beyond the, ‘this system looks like this, therefore it’s not Krav Maga’. If my crude use of stats offended anyone, apologies.

I think there is now a good list by which to challenge any system using the term Krav Maga. I would be interested like Psyops to hear David Kahn’s view/comments on the principles listed – as Haim Gidons representative it would be nice to hear his views.

[psyops]

Re: urban krav maga???

Ask and ye shall receive,

I am going to speak with David Kahn and ask him if he would join this discussion. I consider him a friend and he considers me the same, so I will ask him. In fact it would not surprise me if he is already aware of this thread. David’s expertise is well documented and respected in Krav Maga community all over the world. He and I have spoken recently about Krav Maga and I can tell you that he is very passionate about the system so I agree Machbani. I think David could add a very unique perspective to this discussion.

[machbanai]

Re: urban krav maga???

Thanks – I think having Davids view will round things out nicely. The excelent listings from the KMAA guys, and the material taken from Levine’s book give a good set.

David I think would help give us the current thinking/perspective from what is going on in Israel, so I think his view would be extremely useful for helping to add some more dimensions and color to this thread.

[saruotoko]

Re: urban krav maga???

Damn….while I was at Krav last night, all these great posts came up! I gotta stop training and sit in front of my computer all night, because I’m just missing out! 🙂

And thanks to everyone who continues to post on these forums daily to pose these kinds of questions and drive towards good answers. In the spirit of Machbanai’s knowledge quest, I think this (the Krav forums) is another thing that makes Krav Maga more unique that we may realize at first glance.

Peace,

Mario

[saruotoko]

Re: urban krav maga???

quote Relli Kant:

Principles of Krav Maga as listed in the “Complete Krav Maga” by John Whitman and Darren Levine:

– Techniques should be movements based on natural instincts.

– Techniques must address the immediate danger.

– Techniques must defend and counterattack simultaneously.

– One defense must work against a variety of attacks.

– The system should be integrated so that movements learned in one area of the system complement, rather than contradict, movements in another area.

– Techniques must be accessible to the average person, not just athletes.

– Techniques must work from a position of disadvantage.

– Training must include the stress experienced in real attacks.

This is what happens when I don’t have my Krav Maga books nearby. Big thanks to Relli Kant for the post of the principles from a quality source. 🙂

Mario

[machbanai]

Re: urban krav maga???

quote saruotoko:

Damn….while I was at Krav last night, all these great posts came up! I gotta stop training and sit in front of my computer all night, because I’m just missing out! 🙂

Or move to a different time zone, where you can train and post!

[relli-kant]

Re: urban krav maga???

quote saruotoko:

Big thanks to Relli Kant for the post of the principles from a quality source. 🙂

You’re welcome! :):

[ryan]

Re: urban krav maga???

Sorry, Psyops, but your comments regarding David Kahn are confusing to me, considering the nature of your other posts. I mean no offense, and admittedly, I have not read his newest book. That said, I viewed some of the random pages available on Amazon, read something about the orange belt curriculum having 50 jointlocks and chokes, then another page discussed “armbar feints from mount”. You’ve got to be kidding with that. Another turn or two, and I see a “scissors leg takedown”, which also mentions a flying version. Furthermore, it is my understanding that these “advanced techniques” are from yellow through green, only.

Full disclosure, I have never trained with Kahn, and these were only a few pages, but out of the 10 or so I viewed, these were some of the gems I found.

[jburtonpdx]

Re: urban krav maga???

quote Ryan:

Another turn or two, and I see a “scissors leg takedown”, which also mentions a flying version.

Did there happen to be a pic of CJ’s dad doing the flying version? I have heard things about his “surprises” during his own fight class, along with suggestions of saying “no” if asked about breakfalls….

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