urban krav maga???

[david-kahn]

Re: urban krav maga???

Ryan,

To date, I have never posted on this forum. I have always tried to remain courteous and diplomatic. That said, you have never been exposed to the Israeli curriculum. The material and methods we teach are singularly different from that taught by any other krav maga organization.


What you don’t know is that Imi personally approved the technique modifications and improvements to the IKMA curriculum. Krav maga at the orange belt level is designed to prepare a fighter against any type of unarmed combat.

I can appreciate your loyalty to your organization, but you seem quite ready to criticize others, especially, the original Israeli Krav Maga Association. If you want to have a substantive discussion, we welcome it. In fact, I can put you in touch with some Spec Ops guys who will explain to you why the “scissors takedown” is instrumental in military and other specialized training.

Regarding your criticisms of armbar feints, this is part of retzev or continuous combat movement. If you would like criticize other techniques or instructors, including Ohad Gidon’s abilities, I am happy to respond. It is axiomatic that if you can dole it out, you should be prepared to take it.

It is a shame that there is such rancor in the krav maga community. Personal attacks do not help.

Best,

David Kahn
IKMA

[ninja]

Re: urban krav maga???

quote Psyops:

With regard to the principles….

1. There are no Rules
2. Overwhelm the attacker with ruthless agression, Defend and counter at the same time!
3. Be aware of other threats
4. Use any and all means to survive
5. Don’t get hurt
6. Escape when the opportunity presents itself
7. When clear of the threat check yourself for any unknown injuries
8. Call Law enforcement first to report the incident as the victim

Specific training rules are:

Create a stressful realistic enviornement for the student
Encourage the student to work through mistakes
In fact tell them to embrace the concept of making a mistake and driving on
Always hit targets at full speed
Do not “engage in boxing”, no posing, no taking pictures only overwhelm and get out
Understand the +1 factor, it’s the attacker +1 other thing that you don’t know about that is the danger
Retzev-Continuous Combatives must happen at all times

Just my key points

1 – except the law in your country/state / my number 1 would be AVOID CONFLICT if you can.
2- Not ruthless but rather ENOUGH aggression / counter cannot always be at same time..as soon as possible is the key,, . sometimes no counter even is acceptable.
3- agreed. scan the area, search for other attacker(s)
4- 8 , agreed

[ryan]

Re: urban krav maga???

David, no where did I come close to any personal attack, nor did I insult any instructor. I’d like for you to point out the personal attack I made. Methinks you doth protest too much.

Throw all the names around you’d like, I didn’t mention anyone but you and Psyops, and my post had less to do with you and your book and more to do with trying to understand where Psyops is coming from regarding his criticism of “MMA influence” but his “endorsement” of you (which I don’t have strong feelings on either way.)

Regarding the “scissors takedown”, I wasn’t aware that this was a military book, aimed at Spec Ops (though I’d still argue the relative efficacy of such a technique in a CQC situation, with all the requisite gear.) My mistake.

For what it is worth, you don’t know what I know or what my exposure has been.

All the best.

[ninja]

Re: urban krav maga???

quote Ryan:

Sorry, Psyops, but your comments regarding David Kahn are confusing to me, considering the nature of your other posts. I mean no offense, and admittedly, I have not read his newest book. That said, I viewed some of the random pages available on Amazon, read something about the orange belt curriculum having 50 jointlocks and chokes, then another page discussed “armbar feints from mount”. You’ve got to be kidding with that. Another turn or two, and I see a “scissors leg takedown”, which also mentions a flying version. Furthermore, it is my understanding that these “advanced techniques” are from yellow through green, only.

Full disclosure, I have never trained with Kahn, and these were only a few pages, but out of the 10 or so I viewed, these were some of the gems I found.

50 jointlocks and chokes?? “armbar feints from mount ?? Is it just me or is Krav Maga in some systems changing to MMA with the occasional kick to the groin?

[ryan]

Re: urban krav maga???

For the record, my post WAS NOT about organizations, instructors, politics, etc. I was merely trying to understand the POV of Psyops regarding recent discussions. What other organizations are, were, will be, should be, could be, etc. had nothing to do with my post. That said, I’m happy to debate techniques and principles.

[ninja]

Re: urban krav maga???

quote Ryan:

For the record, my post WAS NOT about organizations, instructors, politics, etc. I was merely trying to understand the POV of Psyops regarding recent discussions. What other organizations are, were, will be, should be, could be, etc. had nothing to do with my post. That said, I’m happy to debate techniques and principles.

What is your oppinion on on what krav maga for civillians should aim for? Self defense? If your anwer is a yes, do you think the MMA stuff is a good thing to implement in the system?

[ryan]

Re: urban krav maga???

We go to great lengths at my school and at our seminars to draw a hard line between sport fighting and fighting for your life. Are there skill sets and training methodoligies in sport fighting that are of benefit to Krav Maga training? Yes, without a doubt, but keeping the goals of KM training in mind are of utmost importance, and the training should reflect that.

[ninja]

Re: urban krav maga???

i aggree thumbsup

[psyops]

Re: urban krav maga???

Ryan,

Let me be clear. David and I have had this discussion already. I see armbars, mounts, and many of the other things that you see as well. My feelings about these techniques are well documented. Simply put I don’t like them. I don’t use them and I don’t teach them! Why? Because civillians have very little use for them. Military and Police certainly do. I don’t think IKMA seperates these techniques into a “Force training Division” like KMAA does. So this is one of the primary differences between the organizations that has shaped some of the techniques, training methods and philosophy. Scissors take down to the dead side has very little application in civillian life. However a handcuffed soldier might need to know how to use this technique. It’s just an example.

Now that I have restated that let me say this: There are techniques in David’s book that I do think are applicable and useful in the street. In fact there are several that I belive constitute good Krav Maga! Roger and I have and continue to look at his book and take a practical approach to the techniques that interest us. We try and prove the validity and practicality to the best of our ability. There are some we like and some we don’t. We do this because we belive there is merit in all things. Even when proving that some things have less merit than others, there is still merit in the process.

I am interested in examining the differences and for lack of a better word, “stealing” the techniques that are in line with our schools approach. Organizational beef aside I endorse David because I understand his approach, training methods, lineage and his ability is not in question.

So forgive me if I confused any of you. I state publicly that I am not a fan of any MMA technique being used for Krav Maga unless it meets the aforementioned principles.

My endorsement of David Kahn as an instructor will ruffle some feathers on our side of the lake. Tough Titty! I am not now nor will I ever be a part of the political crap that has embarrased the system for too long. We are not better off because of it, so I don’t want any part of it.

David is my friend. My respect for Ryan Hoover is unquestioned. My love for Krav Maga is unwavering. Do you know what’s cool about this though? I picked up the phone and called the man who wrote the book we are talking about. He has always been polite, a true pro, open to questions and critque and most importantly available. Again when I had questions about Eyal I did not speculate. I had dinner with the man and asked him point blank. When I had questions about N. in Israel I picked up the phone and reached out to him, it was one of the best things I have ever done because I have a better understanding now than I did before and on top of that I have made a great friend. When I had questions about the KMF in New York, I picked up the phone and reached out to them. They are wonderful people, who are truly passionate about Krav Maga!

The point here folks is that reading a book is one way to enlightenment. Talking to the author and training with the author is another thing entirely. I have trained with Darren, John Whitman, Eyal Yanilov and very very soon David Kahn! Three Authors. Three extraordinary teachers and three of the best Kravists on the planet!

[ryan]

Re: urban krav maga???

Thanks for the clarification. Just for clarity’s sake, I have no opinion of Kahn one way or the other. I’ve never talked to him, never trained with him, never seen him do anything, so my opinions are limited to the few pages I saw in the book (which I disclosed.) I have no reason to question his ability nor endorse him, because of this. I would train with him, if the opportunity ever presented itself.

This is not about organization for me. At my school, we “borrow” from anyone and everyone with something valid to offer (inside and outside of KM.) Good technique, based on sound principles, is all I am looking for when evaluating. That said, if we stay with the scissor takedown (which I hate to do, but since you brought it up again), in my opinion, it violates principles germaine to a sound KM curriculum. The “valid” context in which it is likely even more narrow than something like a slap kick, which has already been bemoaned here. Just my opinion.

All the best,
Ryan

[psyops]

Re: urban krav maga???

Ryan,

I get where you’re coming from. I really do. Perhaps the disconnect between us as traditional KMAA instructors is that the techniques that are being taught in Israel are different because the situations that exsist are unique to Israel. I am not basing this on anything other than my own observations. I plan on learning and training with David very soon. Why? Because I want to see Haim’s interpretation of Krav Maga. There can be no doubt about his ability and understanding as Imi’s highest ranking student. Also it is my hope that through training together we can stop bickering as organizations and start learning and sharing as people.

The original question about Urban Krav Maga is interesting. James H. has put some of the best comments about it right here in this thread and my feelings are on record as well. I think I know how you feel about it too Ryan. As we are often in sync and even when I am not in sync as I am a bit of a non conformist, I always look forward to your posts. I just don’t think that the techniques I say Stewart use on Urban Krav Maga are inline with any organization that I have seen. So no it’s not Krav Maga.

[ryan]

Re: urban krav maga???

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree that things are different, which is why I’ve never bought into the “train from the source” argument. I also don’t put much stock in ranks or associations with high ranks. This isn’t to demean anyone or any organization, I just don’t believe that because something/someone is from Israel, has a certain rank, and/or is closely associated with someone with a high rank are definitive qualifiers. Furthermore, quite often, the best practitioners (in anything) are not always the best teachers. None of this disqualifies anyone, I suppose I’m just a “show me” kind of person.

All of that said, I will agree to disagree on the technique in question, and it’s vailidity as a level 1-3 technique.

[rich-f]

Re: urban krav maga???

Having trained both here and in Netanya I can say without reservation that David Kahn and the IKMA in Israel are in a league by themselves when it comes to KM. No insult implied to anyone else, but they have brought training to another level.

With all the anti-Israel, anti-American and anti-semitic crap that occurs it is better that we learn from each other than constantly bicker and fight about KM organization (Moni Azik is another story). Al-Queda, Hamas, Hezbellah, and the rest really do not care which KM organization we are affiliated with, they just want us dead.

Haim is an inspiring teacher and he trains great instructors. While training with Haim, Ohad, Yigal and the rest of the group in Netanya, they spent as much time teaching us how to teach as well as teaching us technique. As for David teaching advanced techniques I can say that I had to use the so-called advanced techniques a few weeks after my first class 8 years ago. It saved my life.
I recommend that for anyone who cant make the trip to Israel, they should make a trip to visit David’s school here in the US.

[ryan]

Re: urban krav maga???

Well, Rich, that is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. That said, for a system that is designed to work for everyone, be learned quickly, be performed under stress, and be integrated, there are a lot of techniques in this book that, in my opinion, don’t follow these guidelines. Futhermore, there is nothing new about them, as you seem to imply. Most, particularly the groundfighting, are taken from sambo, BJJ, and wrestling.

[ukm-jake]

Re: urban krav maga???

I know this is a older post and that I am new but I wanted to set somethings straight.

I have been practicing UKM in Canada for 8 months now. I agree with the comments regarding some of the UKM video’s on the UKM site, BUT…….

I can say that most of the stuff that I have learned in class has most defiantly been a mix if IKMF, IKMA , some BCA stuff, a bit of Kapap and I think one CKM technique (LOL)

I think that UKM is basically a simple hybrid of other KM “brands”

I know the instructors and everyone else is doing it for the love of SD and KM :):

Our instructor will sometimes show us the IKMA, IKMF, CKM versions of a certain technique and then tell us that the CKM way would be suicide, but that is usually obvious, even to newbies 🙂

[Author]

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