usefulness of sparring classes?

[giant-killer]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

Even sparring between a big person and a smaller one can be useful. Of course, the bigger guy will hold back, but as long as you realize that, you can still train your vision, work on fighting through stress etc. I’ve done plenty of groundfighting with bigger people and it helps to practice moving and escapes, using technique instead of power. It also shows me how hard it is to get back up while being pinned down by a much larger person and thus makes me understand – through experience – how hard I should try to avoid getting in such a situation.

So, everything has benefits, as long as one understands the context.

_________________
Giantkiller

[stevetuna]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

ARRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!

I just finished our fight class. We had six guys participating. The last guy that I worked with is the biggest guy in the class. He’s the guy that’s always talking about where he’s been and who he’s worked with, etc. He and I worked one two-minute round. Control went out the window early on. We hit each other with a couple of bombs. He threw a big right hand that missed (good thing) and we stopped. He said, “Don’t throw any more left hooks like that.” I said, “Fine, don’t throw any more right hands like that.” We stepped away from each other and he decided that was that. We stopped. We left the floor and got out of our fight gear. He and I talked afterwards and things are good.

I thought a lot about what happened. My conclusion is that I get scared when I’m cornered and I lash out. I gave up a ton of reach, pounds and years to this guy. I had a significant pile of ego chips in the pot as well. After all, I’m the big instructor, right? Finally, I know that I am stuck somewhat in the past – when I was boxing, I was the big fish in the small pond. I could work with anyone and be confident, letting them throw punches that I could slip or re-direct (locally, at least – I only had to go to the Golden Gloves to get my ass kicked…). Now I don’t have the speed or vision that I once had. Thus, I freak out when someone’s closing in.

I will say that I worked well with the two other guys that I sparred with tonight. I worked first with a guy who’s a tall kid with very good skill and a long reach advantage. I’ve got the fireplug thing going and thus I’m all about power punching. I caught him a little harder than I wanted to early on. He evened the score by hitting me hard straight up the middle with some good shots. Fine – I took them because I earned them. Everything was even. Good stuff. The next guy is a very skilled, very strong guy with a lot of fight experience. We worked pretty well as I tried to keep to his dead side. He hit me softly with a kick that he could have put me through the wall with. All in all, those rounds went ok.

All I know is that I suck at gearing it down. I don’t know what else to say, aside from thank you for letting me rant. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!

[vwr32]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

quote stevetuna:

After all, I’m the big instructor, right?

I think it took a lot to own up to as much as you did, most people would have pointed the finger and said it was the other guy who lost control.

The way I see it, the competitive nature doesn’t go away simply because you change gears in life. When you said the above statement, it made me think of all the Human Weapon episodes where the instructor is a frail, white haired old man in some 3rd world country dishing out advice to those wanting to learn. I’m not saying you’re like them, just highlighting the roles. I have yet to see any of them mixing it up seriously with their students and I doubt any of the “old wise” instructors on that show could beat their own top students. But that doesn’t change their importance.

I’ve seen one of my instructors spar with some top students in the ring, but he’s always in control and you can tell he’s allowing the student to still be in a learning position. You can tell it’s not about winning, rather he’s a highly qualified sparring partner there to push the limits on a predetermined drill for the student.

The age or ability of the instructor to “beat” the student has little to do with their effectiveness as an instructor imo, so I hope you’re not questioning your right to continue instructing. Your role is to instruct. If you never put the gloves on again, that wouldn’t mean you couldn’t instruct or that your students are somehow at a disadvantage. The goal is to get the students to a point where they are doing things right. Also, I wonder how many students would see their instructors in a different light if the students regularly “win” sparring matches. It could (imo) establish a point where the student thinks he has outgrown the instructor and needs to move on couldn’t it?

I like to think if I ever get to the point where I can “win” a sparring match against my instructor, i would hope they don’t take it as a defeat. It’s a victory for them as I’m only as dangerous as they’ve made me. For you, you played a role in getting this guy to where he is today just like the rest of his instructors. If you want to blame your loss of control on you becoming older that’s fine. But it may just be that he has had some good instructors doing their jobs. You included. thumbsup

[clfmak]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

I’ve seen people avoid sparring because they aren’t good at it and don’t like getting hit, but they use excuses about how sparring isn’t like a real fight etc. In my opinion, if you can’t be proficient under the stress of sparring, you won’t magically be proficient in real life.

[oldkravdude]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

To really be as good as you can be with your self defense sparring classes are a must. Well, sparring classes done right without egos, anyhow. An example: one of my tops students who was as sharp as a tack with all his techniques was sparring for the first time at the end of one of his tests. I noticed that whenever he was pressed he turned his head away. I pointed out that as soon as he turns his head and looks away he is toast, that the attacker will t off on him and he can’t block what he can’t see. As good as he was at Krav he would have been in trouble with a reall attacker because of this bad habit. Shortly after that we started sparring classes. Now he keeps his chin tucked and never looks away. He can probably take his instructor now!! Nothing can resemble a real attack like someone really trying to hit you. It does funny things to your brain.

[leejam99]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

quote vwr32:

The age or ability of the instructor to “beat” the student has little to do with their effectiveness as an instructor imo, so I hope you’re not questioning your right to continue instructing. Your role is to instruct. If you never put the gloves on again, that wouldn’t mean you couldn’t instruct or that your students are somehow at a disadvantage. The goal is to get the students to a point where they are doing things right. Also, I wonder how many students would see their instructors in a different light if the students regularly “win” sparring matches. It could (imo) establish a point where the student thinks he has outgrown the instructor and needs to move on couldn’t it?

I like to think if I ever get to the point where I can “win” a sparring match against my instructor, i would hope they don’t take it as a defeat. It’s a victory for them as I’m only as dangerous as they’ve made me. For you, you played a role in getting this guy to where he is today just like the rest of his instructors. If you want to blame your loss of control on you becoming older that’s fine. But it may just be that he has had some good instructors doing their jobs. You included. thumbsup

IMO being a great fighter doesn’t equal to being a great instructor or vise versa in some cases. Freddy roach couldn’t fight my grandmother but he is the best trainer around for boxing. Shawn Tomkins never did good in his fighting career but he is one of the most respected trainer in MMA. On the other hand, I’ve been to seminars with top current fighters but their instructions sucked. So what i’m trying to say is that I would never feel bad if a student were to get the better of me during sparring or tap me out while we are rolling….as long as it didn’t happen all the time and with everyone 🙂

As for usefulness of sparring, its a MUST! the biggest hurdle for a person is to get pass the fear of getting punched and not look away or freak out. No other training will help except sparring. yes the techniques used in sparing may not be directly used in a street fight but all of it helps with your overall fight game.

James

[jay99]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

quote leejam99:

Freddy roach couldn’t fight my grandmother

Dude, is your grandma really still fighting? I mean I have had heard rumors in the alleys of dojos… all the myths, legends and fables…but I never thought they were real!

Is it possible… are they true???

[leejam99]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

quote Jay99:

Dude, is your grandma really still fighting? I mean I have had heard rumors in the alleys of dojos… all the myths, legends and fables…but I never thought they were real!

Is it possible… are they true???

who do you think taught me how to fight….

[marcus-kowal]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

quote edsko:

Hey

Following on from the recent thread on sparring classes, I was wondering what people’s opinions are on the usefulness of sparring classes. How much emphasis should be put on them? The way I see it is that they are good for improving your reaction speed and hand-eye coordination etc., but I’m not so sure how useful actual sparring is in a real fight. I for one would try at all cost to end the fight as soon as I can, and sure hope to avoid sparring with the attacker 🙂

Actually Edsko,
Sparring is a vital part of realistic training: it’s the only way to – safely – simulate a fight. The first time you spar hard, you realize how quickly you get winded, how all your techniques – both offensively and defesively – are completely different. Yes, you (usually) don’t try to knock your partner’s head off, which you would in a real life situation but don’t worry – that will come naturally to you. Believe me when I tell you that I never entered a ring not trying to take my opponents head off as quickly as possible; the difference is that it is paced and methodical “rage”. NOT sparring, however, will never allow you to try these techniques in a live situation.

[psyops]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

Hmm…

I have seen many gym rats who spend every waking hour on the mat. Yet in a street altercation they freeze. They freeze becuase its real. They get scared. They fear being hit without wearing protective gear. Hell I would bet on a big, strong, linebacker type who has no training before I would bet on the average martial arts student. The odds are the football player is not afraid of contact at all. Sparring is ok. Sparring is a game though. You are working and playing with techniques. So in that sense it is good. But if you think that your sparring session is even close to being real, you’re wrong. It’s not. No weapons. No cement. No broken glass. No additional attackers = NOT REAL!

I know Kravists that would absolutely freeze in the moment of truth. I know because they lack street instinct. I know because just like most martial artists, they are novices. They have no idea what its like to get teeth knocked out of their mouths. They have no idea what its like to get hit with bottles or jumped by multiple assailants. They are Gym Rats. That’s all. Affliction T-shirts, sprawl shorts, shin guards, mouthpiece etc… None of this stuff makes you good in the street. When I spar I’m usually smiling and gasping for air. I don’t fear getting hit because its part of the game. It is going to happen no matter how good you are. As a rule you should not hit someone harder than you wish to be hit. Even though the munchkins I spar with from time to time get over zealous. It’s understandable though. I think its human nature to a certain degree. Bigger guys tend to need help controlling their own power. So its a wash. Either way your training partner should always be the gauge of the appropriate striking force during sparring.So there is etiquette for sure. There are rules for sure. None of these things are relevant in tne street

[cjs-dad]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

If I might also add:

One of the very important things sparring can really be helpful with is an understanding timing and how to close the gap effectively. I’m asked all the time what seems like a pretty simple question. “How do I get from here to there without being hit?”

Bag and focus mitt drills can’t replace a live moving person who is trying to avoid being hit and has intention to hit you back.

Very few training partners are going to be able to hold focus pads for you and simulate a sparring scenario. Sure they are going to “move around” but it takes a well trained coach to realistiaclly move with you like that. When James or Marcus hold they get just as much a workout as if they were doing the combos. But that’s a rarity and not the norm they are trained coach’s and not an average KM partner.

Sparring is the closest your going to come to the real thing and is your chance to find out if what your learning is actually going to work.

When you work with someone at an advanced level to yours work on your footwork to avoid being hit, work on your counters, work on effectively defending. If its someone lesser then your skill level work your combinations, closing the gap and creating targets of opportunity.

I think people need to look at sparring as an opportunity no matter what the level of their opponent.

[leejam99]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

quote Psyops:

Hmm…

I have seen many gym rats who spend every waking hour on the mat. Yet in a street altercation they freeze. They freeze becuase its real. They get scared. They fear being hit without wearing protective gear. Hell I would bet on a big, strong, linebacker type who has no training before I would bet on the average martial arts student. The odds are the football player is not afraid of contact at all. Sparring is ok. Sparring is a game though. You are working and playing with techniques. So in that sense it is good. But if you think that your sparring session is even close to being real, you’re wrong. It’s not. No weapons. No cement. No broken glass. No additional attackers = NOT REAL!

I know Kravists that would absolutely freeze in the moment of truth. I know because they lack street instinct. I know because just like most martial artists, they are novices. They have no idea what its like to get teeth knocked out of their mouths. They have no idea what its like to get hit with bottles or jumped by multiple assailants. They are Gym Rats. That’s all. Affliction T-shirts, sprawl shorts, shin guards, mouthpiece etc… None of this stuff makes you good in the street.

how many people in the world knows how it feels to be hit by a bottle?!? or get their teeth knocked out? obviously you can’t simulate all of the “what if” scenarios in the gym but sparring is the closest you’ll get to a real fight. by your thoughts, know one can be good at street fighting unless your actually out fighting everyday. So than why are we taking Krav? is our training in class a waste of time because we can’t practice knife technique with a real knife? or a real gun? There’s no way to realistically simulate what a person will go through in his head when someone points a gun at him….should we not even bother training than…My thought is that even though you can’t be realistic in a gym, drills and sparring is the close as your gonna get and everything you do in sparring (movement, footwork, getting use to the punches, etc..) will all help in a street fight.

point is that any training will make that person that much better.

James

[giant-killer]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

Maybe we could get some of those breakaway bottles they use in the movies and incorporate them into sparring drills…chair :box2:

_________________
Giantkiller

[psyops]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

Don’t put words in my mouth.

The point I am making is that the correlation between sparring and real fighting is a lot farther apart than most of us are willing to admit. The point of taking Krav is to increase one’s reaction to any given attack. Being proficient at self defense is not the same as being a good fighter. There as many similarities as there are differences. Is it neccesary to train with real knives to understand a knife defense? No. Are real guns essential? Of course not. However most people freeze when the threat gets real. I saw it in football. I saw it in the Army. I’ve seen it on the street. It is a reality.

So how important than is ground work? I would submit to you that more time should be spent avoiding being taken down than actually rolling around on the ground. In basically comes down to knowing the difference between self defense and fighting.

[marcus-kowal]

Re: usefulness of sparring classes?

quote Psyops:

Don’t put words in my mouth.

The point I am making is that the correlation between sparring and real fighting is a lot farther apart than most of us are willing to admit. The point of taking Krav is to increase one’s reaction to any given attack. Being proficient at self defense is not the same as being a good fighter. There as many similarities as there are differences. Is it neccesary to train with real knives to understand a knife defense? No. Are real guns essential? Of course not. However most people freeze when the threat gets real. I saw it in football. I saw it in the Army. I’ve seen it on the street. It is a reality.

So how important than is ground work? I would submit to you that more time should be spent avoiding being taken down than actually rolling around on the ground. In basically comes down to knowing the difference between self defense and fighting.

Well, I don’t know how hard you spar or who you spar but if you don’t feel your sparing is “realistic” enough, then find a partner and go full out. If you don’t feel that’s enough, enter an amateur fight somewhere and you’ll get the “realistic feeling” you’re looking for. Yes, people freeze. Yes, people react differently in real life vs training but as James mentioned, this is the closest to reality you will come. And believe me, I’m talking from experience both from the streets and fighting in the ring. I’ve had my eye brows cut, nose broken, jaw dislocated & teeth broken. Did that make me a better fighter or “tougher”? No. All it told me was that I needed to work on my defense.

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