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I currently train in Denver with a school that teaches real self defense schools no McDojo. It’s a blend of martial arts, Silat, Win Chun, and just general dirty fighting. The reason I am thinking of leaving the school is for a couple of reasons and I would like some objective feedback please
1. We train twice a week and due drills and some light to medium sparring with no pads at all. I think this is dangerous. I have been hit too hard accidentally and done the same to others. The instructor says you can still learn just as effectively doing the entire motion just doing it very slowly, but when people get worked up it natural to speed up. I don’t believe that’s possible to train slow and effective. That’s why I was drawn to Krav Maga. I watch videos, Human Weapon, Fight Quest, and they have all of they real life scenarios , gauntlet, 10-1 attackers, padded up and hitting full force which is the way I thing it should be done, because fights are dynamic not slow mo like we train were everything is almost coregraphed. Then why do some KM schools I find out have little or no sparring and no full contact? WTF KM is supposed to be bad ass SD not Tai Bo.
2. The 2nd reason I am thinking of leaving is one of the instructors is verbally abusive to me in front of the class. He thinks he is god because he has 28 years of MA exp. in 5 arts and a high IQ, and I didn’t even sign up to be taught by him. I am brand new at 2 months. We were sparring yesterday and he told me out loud in front of other student to STFU and practice, when I was even interacting with him and I was asking a relevant question. A couple of weeks ago he was trying to teaching me some Kali drill and when I wasn’t getting he got pissed and said what your a f’ing idiot or something. I almost went over and told him to go f himself ass whopping or not.
3. Our main instructor, which is not the bad one, is critical of KM because he says that KM doesn’t spend any time talking about when its appropriate to use lethal force and a lot of what KM teaches is lethal force and when used at the wrong time could land you in prison. That KM is not self defense its a killing sport. Well a lot of people I am finding out feel that Kuntao and Silat are killing sports so what?
I realize I am saying/asking a few different things in one post and would appreciate some feedback as new martial artist.
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
Part of the reason I left the school I was at is because the verbal opinion of one instructor was that “if they pull a weapon on me, they forfeit their life”. That’s a good way to land yourself in jail, and become liable in a lawsuit if one of your students actually goes out and kills someone with that mindset. Go speak with a lawyer, or NRA certified instructor about the use of lethal force. Try to remember that the use of lethal force is to stop the threat, not kill it. If it/they happen to die along the way, not your fault. You didn’t intend to kill, only to stop them from killing you.
As for being critical of other arts, whatever. Slow practice can be effective. In a bit of a different scenario, consider a 4-man entry team entering a room to clear it in a CQB environment. If they all run in there as fast as they can, what have they done? Made more targets appear in quick succession. Slow it down, practice deliberate, precise movements. When the time comes and you’re executing at speed, your body will know what to do. This is not to say that sparring at 50% and 75% intensity is worthless, just that sparring at that intensity without having a good feel for the mechanics of what you’re doing is.Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
Where to begin…
1. You probably shouldn’t be sparring 2 months in.
2. Krav Maga is self-defense. No debate. Next.
3. At my Krav Maga school, the use of lethal force and related issues (what’s legal, what’s not, the line between self-defense and assault, etc.) is actually covered quite a bit in class, as I’m sure it is at other Krav Maga schools of both our and the other reputable organizations/branches. Trust me, as students we’re all made very aware of certain realities when it comes to our safety and the legality of what we can and cannot do. Also, our organization trains cops, and the head of the organization is a prosecutor for the LA District Attorney’s Office (or something like that.) Point is, no one’s going around encouraging students to do anything illegal. Quite the opposite in fact.
4. Pads or no pads, slow sparring is a very important learning tool for beginners, then you can pick up speed and intensity. Yes, one also learns by going all out/being aggressive/getting housed/housing the other person (ideally with pads), but there’s so much more to it in terms of technique and mindset than that. As with anything, crawl before you walk.
5. If your instinct is telling you that your school/teacher is bad news, I encourage you to absolutely listen to it. Far be it from me to judge, but from what you wrote, I would tend to agree. In general, I prefer to avoid the Rex Kwon Do’s of the world. If someone seems like a richard, I usually don’t go back to their class if they’re the teacher or partner with them if they’re a fellow student.
6. Far as I know, most if not all Krav Maga schools worth their salt do have sparring, just not in Level 1. The fighting muscles are built by going from from light and slow to hard and fast, full contact. If you get a chance, search these forums for a description of the Krav Maga Worldwide black belt test and you’ll see what I mean. In fact, I copied something this guy who used to teach at KMW wrote about it because I think it’s awesome. Here’s an excerpt: “After about 5 hours of nonstop testing [for KMW black belt], they had to fight. They fought multiple rounds with each other until they were exhausted, then multiple rounds with a fresh fighter larger and more experienced than they. His job was to break them. Both of them got dropped (remember, they had been going for five hours and their opponent was totally fresh), but got back up and kept fighting.” Bad ass enough for you?
7. Krav Maga Denver is supposed to be very good. I’m sure they’d let you check out a class. Best case it’ll be life-changing, worst it’ll be a waste of an hour. My guess is it’ll probably fall somewhere in between and hopefully be useful information as you continue on your personal journey. (Aww, just got all new-agey on you there…)
Anyway, good luck!
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
Hello Daniel
Practical and dynamic application of your training is valuable in any self defense or martial arts training. Pads and protective equipment is used for the protection of the user less then the training partner. Your power and speed should be developed to the point you should not need pads (that being said I still advocate the use of training pads) as your training progresses so should your control.
In regards to your question about the application of self defense and the law. In our training course it’s the first thing that’s covered. You should have an intimate understanding of the use of force policy in your state and locality. In Texas it’s Chapter 9 of the Penal code. Read it, learn it, ask questions about it (I am not knocking any NRA instructors, but they are not who I would be directing questions to) Multiple sources such as police officers, criminal justice professors, assistant district attorney or criminal defense attorney. Do your do diligence and educate yourself. You will spend years learning to defend yourself but only spend a few minutes to understand your rights under the law.
You are in luck that you are in Denver. Look up James Hiromasa at Colorado Krav Maga he was my instructor for my level 1 training and is very knowledgeable and is a great instructor and trainer.
Krav Maga should do the job for the training your looking for, however I would always suggest exposing yourself to other forms of training, some basic knowledge in Judo or Ju-Jujitsu never hurts anyone.
Good luck, train hard and be safe.
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
Curious.. if you dont mind me asking.. what denver school is that?/
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
quote esquire32:Curious.. if you dont mind me asking.. what denver school is that?/I not sure if you are asking me or the KM folks, but as I still evaluating I don’t want to give any more info since I have made some criticisms that if found out may get me booted. After reading that KM doesn’t allow any sparring at Level 1 I may just stick it out or try to reconcile with the bad instructor. My plan is to talk with head instructor and give him a chance to talk with his associate. Don’t get me wrong I am tough but I didn’t pay to be a verbal punching bag for an frustrated instructor.
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
quote Metta World Krav Maga:Where to begin…1. You probably shouldn’t be sparring 2 months in.
2. Krav Maga is self-defense. No debate. Next.
3. At my Krav Maga school, the use of lethal force and related issues (what’s legal, what’s not, the line between self-defense and assault, etc.) is actually covered quite a bit in class, as I’m sure it is at other Krav Maga schools of both our and the other reputable organizations/branches. Trust me, as students we’re all made very aware of certain realities when it comes to our safety and the legality of what we can and cannot do. Also, our organization trains cops, and the head of the organization is a prosecutor for the LA District Attorney’s Office (or something like that.) Point is, no one’s going around encouraging students to do anything illegal. Quite the opposite in fact.
4. Pads or no pads, slow sparring is a very important learning tool for beginners, then you can pick up speed and intensity. Yes, one also learns by going all out/being aggressive/getting housed/housing the other person (ideally with pads), but there’s so much more to it in terms of technique and mindset than that. As with anything, crawl before you walk.
5. If your instinct is telling you that your school/teacher is bad news, I encourage you to absolutely listen to it. Far be it from me to judge, but from what you wrote, I would tend to agree. In general, I prefer to avoid the Rex Kwon Do’s of the world. If someone seems like a richard, I usually don’t go back to their class if they’re the teacher or partner with them if they’re a fellow student.
6. Far as I know, most if not all Krav Maga schools worth their salt do have sparring, just not in Level 1. The fighting muscles are built by going from from light and slow to hard and fast, full contact. If you get a chance, search these forums for a description of the Krav Maga Worldwide black belt test and you’ll see what I mean. In fact, I copied something this guy who used to teach at KMW wrote about it because I think it’s awesome. Here’s an excerpt: “After about 5 hours of nonstop testing [for KMW black belt], they had to fight. They fought multiple rounds with each other until they were exhausted, then multiple rounds with a fresh fighter larger and more experienced than they. His job was to break them. Both of them got dropped (remember, they had been going for five hours and their opponent was totally fresh), but got back up and kept fighting.” Bad ass enough for you?
7. Krav Maga Denver is supposed to be very good. I’m sure they’d let you check out a class. Best case it’ll be life-changing, worst it’ll be a waste of an hour. My guess is it’ll probably fall somewhere in between and hopefully be useful information as you continue on your personal journey. (Aww, just got all new-agey on you there…)
Anyway, good luck!
Thank you. I don’t understand why no sparring is allowed at Level1? Level 1 takes 6 months to complete I have read? What am I going to be doing practicing movements, essentially katas for 6 months? If that’s the case I am totally confused. KM is supposed to be quick and easy to learn compared to other MA’s. I was able to learn the KM defense for knife/swinging right and apply it correctly in my current class just by watching instructional videos.
I guess I could see during Level 1, doing the drills for about a month then letting people do some light sparring, then a month later if ready full hard contact full padded up. From what I have seen KM is easy to learn compared to FMA or Silat techniques. Where I think KM may fall short is that when the attack doesn’t work like you expect, because the world is dynamic, then what? There is little fluidity in KM compared to Silat or FMA from my limited viewing and experience. I don’t know about the focus on proper structure in KM but in Silat it’s everything.
I was already planning on checking out KM in Denver and comparing it to the other KM schools in Denver metro.
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
I’d check out this website http://www.coloradokravmaga.com/ and then give them a shot. I’ve trained with James and his knowladge of the system is first rate. I’d consider yourself lucky that you live close enough to go there.
Don’t waste your time at a place that already has shown you what they are about.
Just my .02
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
Not to sound like a jerk, but it sounds like you would be happier in an MMA type environment.
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
quote bear34:Not to sound like a jerk, but it sounds like you would be happier in an MMA type environment.I don’t think you are jerk, but I believe MMA is a joke for SD frankly, if you are referring to BJJ. I have had the chance to talk to many experts that were bouncers, cops, military, and they dont’ want to go to the ground because the ground ain’t padded like the ring. There is glass, debris, etc. MMA is sport fighting not SD. I like the UFC for sport but other than learning a basic right knee and/or hip thrust to get someone off me I don’t buy the 80% of all fights go the ground. That’s not been my experience at all. I have been in about 20 fights in my life, mostly in JH and High School and not one went to the ground. My former co worker that trains MMA and boxing said dont’ ever go to the ground if you can help it concrete isn’t like the ring. His buddy a BJJ blue belt got into a street fight won the fight but got injured so badly voluntarily going to the ground to submit the guy on concrete he is now going to physical therapy.
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
I ask that you do your best to keep an open mind. A lot of KM instructors are officers, military, etc. and have put forth a lot of dedication. Real violence is complex and they get that. And you are right, in silat, fluid motion is everything. In violence, you get a blender effect.
There’s many reasons why you wont spar immediately. KM is designed to be learned quickly by just about everybody. You can’t expect a previously lethargic mom to come in and rock everybody’s world. Going slow for a while and understanding the details translates to students having more confidence when initially sparring. They don’t feel like they are being thrown to the wolves.
Also keep in mind that sparring isn’t the holy grail in the world of self defense. Somebody around here made a good point that sparring is nothing more than a game of high risk tag. Fantastic for learning distance, timing, and knowing what it feels like to be aggressive and get hit. By having realistic drills on self defense techniques is like Krav Maga’s sparring as well. Somebody should be playing dirty on bear hugs after you are use to them. Trying to slam you down, pick you up, not let go, dig their head in your back to stop your elbows, etc. My instructor loves kicking the back of my knee before he locks in his rear naked choke hold. That really makes things difficult but I’ve learned a lot from it.
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
quote TheDarkKnight:I ask that you do your best to keep an open mind. A lot of KM instructors are officers, military, etc. and have put forth a lot of dedication. Real violence is complex and they get that. And you are right, in silat, fluid motion is everything. In violence, you get a blender effect.There’s many reasons why you wont spar immediately. KM is designed to be learned quickly by just about everybody. You can’t expect a previously lethargic mom to come in and rock everybody’s world. Going slow for a while and understanding the details translates to students having more confidence when initially sparring. They don’t feel like they are being thrown to the wolves.
Also keep in mind that sparring isn’t the holy grail in the world of self defense. Somebody around here made a good point that sparring is nothing more than a game of high risk tag. Fantastic for learning distance, timing, and knowing what it feels like to be aggressive and get hit. By having realistic drills on self defense techniques is like Krav Maga’s sparring as well. Somebody should be playing dirty on bear hugs after you are use to them. Trying to slam you down, pick you up, not let go, dig their head in your back to stop your elbows, etc. My instructor loves kicking the back of my knee before he locks in his rear naked choke hold. That really makes things difficult but I’ve learned a lot from it.
You make good points. I am 43 in pretty good shape, and have been doing some sparring in a MA. A old lady starting out is no match for me to spar with. Just like me coming in an sparring against an LEO trained in KM Level 5 could hurt me. This brings up a good point. I should try to find a school that has students with similar age, physical ability to me. If I am just training against grandmas that does me no good, it only benefits her.
And let me emphasize I don’t think slow speed sparring is good past learn the movement correctly. I agree real violence is a blender and that’s why I was drawn to KM that I want scenario based attacks fulled padded so we can blast them full on, once we know how to do the movement. The first time I saw any real scenario training was Fast Defense with the bullet man. That seems realistic someone woofing you, threatening you, and coming in for an attack and you have to improvise on the fly because reality is dynamic not like in the dojo where slow speed sparring is controlled and punches are pulled.
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
Well I contacted Krav in Denver and asked for trial tomorrow so we will see. I appreciate the responses they have been helpful.
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
Although I love sparring, in the end it is just that: sparring. At least from a KM stand point, you’re not suppose to stand toe-to-toe with an attacker. You try to disable the threat as soon as possible and high tail it out of there to get home safely. At my school, there is no sparring until Level 3 I believe. However, there are fight classes that you can take starting at level 1 that focuses on sparring and ground fighting. You should probably see if the school you’re looking at offers these classes.
Re: Why don’t all KM schools train all out?
quote KMyoshi:Although I love sparring, in the end it is just that: sparring. At least from a KM stand point, you’re not suppose to stand toe-to-toe with an attacker. You try to disable the threat as soon as possible and high tail it out of there to get home safely. At my school, there is no sparring until Level 3 I believe. However, there are fight classes that you can take starting at level 1 that focuses on sparring and ground fighting. You should probably see if the school you’re looking at offers these classes.Thank you because I am looking for “fight classes” and real life scenario based training. Right now we only train for a right/left hand punch coming straight on. That’s very limited IMO. How would that serve my wife for SD? It most likely wouldn’t. I like that KM teaches defenses against chokes, punches, bear hugs, because I believe my wife would most likely be attacked from behind or choked, not a right punch coming in like 2 guys mano to mano.
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