[nkfr]

Re: Krav Maga and WWII hand to hand combat

Interesting question, interesting thread.
I’ve been wondering about that question for quite some time now, because I’m both a KM AND Combatives aficionado.

I don’t know about the influence the Fairbain/Sykes/Applegate system had on KM, but I know two things for sure:

A) There’s common combatives between the WWII Combatives and the KM curriculum, e.g. chops, axe hands, tiger claws, etc…

B) Imi was a Palmach instructor. Some of the Haganah fighters have been trained by the Brits, including vets from the Jewish Brigade who later immigrated to Israel (the land).

I think that we can’t see, or can’t see anymore the influence WWII Combatives had on KM for a very simple reason: the current KM system, no matter through which organization it is taught, is mostly aimed to the civilians, so it emphasizes on the experience Imi had on the streets, while obviously, the WWII Combatives are a military system.

But the historical aspect is one thing -and as an history fan I find that fascinating-, the tactical one is another.

What I see is that KM and Combatives perfectly fit together.
IMHO including some Combatives aspects in a KM curriculum can’t be anything but great.
But thus being said, I’m no KM nor Combatives instructor.

[nkfr]

Re: Iki ?

quote Psyops:

Imi gave us the beggining not the end.

Agreed.
As a matter of fact, Imi gave some permissions to some of his top students (Eyal, Haim Gidon) in order to update the system.
Besides I find worrying the fact that some people, in the KM midst, think that KM is a traditional martial art.
I noticed that more and more people are saying “Imi taught that” in order to justify some non-senses in their curriculum.
We know for a fact that takedowns, high kicks and even, in some extend, closed-hands strikes are dangerous in a self-protection perspective, but still, some people are saying: “Imi was a boxer and a wrestler, so we have to train boxing-style stand-up and takedowns”.

[nkfr]

Re: Best way to kick the knee??

quote :

KRav maga fails to have this kick in its arsenal. Very odd.

Actually I think that virtually any technique is in the KM arsenal.
Isn’t it the point of KM ? Using each move you think efficient as long as it fits in the KM principles ?
Besides I’m not that sure those kicks aren’t in the KM curriculum: after all, they’re not that different from the one we use for the take downs from behind.

quote :

I guess you could do front foot

Yep and I use to train that combative in KM.
You can either strike in a “piston” or “walk through the leg”.

quote :

If you want to hit an attacker’s knee and you have a choice between the Savate kick and a round kick using your shin as the striking surface, the round kick is the easier one to land reliably.

I don’t really agree.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m fond of the good old fashioned roundhouse kick to the leg/knee, and I have been working them for quite some time, but I’m definitively not a fan of them in a KM perspective.
Since the move is “round”, they’re slower than a front kick -I’m not a Savate practitioner and the leg front kick is in the KM curriculum- and so easier to counter: I guess that’s why we have such deadly low-kick defense in KM lol.

[nkfr]

Re: Best way to kick the knee??

@lions: Savate kicks are interesting in a self defense perspective because even in “French boxing” (the “sport’s version” of the Savate) you wear some shoes (those aforementioned shoes are between boxing and wrestling shoes) so it let you strike with your toes and pretty unusual angles.
Very interesting.

quote :

you found the kick of savate on youtube. I tried to find that for weeks and failed. Good job. I am going to save that clip and practice it.

Well, since I speak French, I just had to Google the name of the technique in French.
Besides that HW episode was pretty popular in France.

quote :

This kick is a front kick but the foot is angled oblique like. That is one I was looking for . Thanks…

Kinda.
In fact, you can or use it as a front kick or as a push kick.
But if you wanna learn that technique, you should get in touch with those guys: http://www.savateaustralia.com/.
They did an incredible job researching the Savate history, and even in France, the Savate fans rely a lot on their website.
I’m pretty confident they will give you further explanations (I’m not a Savate practitioner) and drills in order to work on that technique.

BTW, there’s a French professional MT fighter who comes from Savate and uses those kicks in MT contests.

[nkfr]

Re: Best way to kick the knee??

The side kick is very good but kinda slow if you’re in the front of your opponent.
The front kick is efficient as well.

I’m a great fan of knee strikes with the heel.
Those kicks are the basics of the old Savate (street-fighting oriented):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-_x0UPhalE -in this video, the kick is thrown on the leg but you can strike the knee as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SZj9y1R6KY

[nkfr]

Re: Judo throws

I noticed that pretty much in every KM federation, there’s “o soto gari-like” throws.
But usually most of the “classic” hip and shoulder throws are advanced techniques.

[nkfr]

Re: sparring in KM ???

quote :

for us Average joes!!! I think light-medium contact is enough contact

Agreed.
To be truthful, I used “full contact” because of my lack of vocabulary when it comes to “Martial Arts English” ;).
IMO, the most important is to keep in mind that a “sparring” is a drill and nothing more than a drill.
Besides, I strongly believe that if you’re not able to react/defend/whatever after a training….it means that it’s not an efficient training.

This being said, you can assume a “heavy contact” sparring while keeping in mind that you have to preserve your sparring partner (since I see sparring as a tool and I know that I can deliver quite efficient blows, I mostly use it in order to work my ground game, throws, etc….).

And a heavy sparring session is always efficient in order to let some people understand a few things about combatives.

[nkfr]

Re: sparring in KM ???

At “our” training group, basically there’s two types of “sparring”:

1) Most of ’em are what we can call “flow drills”: slow motion sparring with contact.

+: One of the best drills I can imagine. It helps building some great abilities and is very handful in order to get what the retzev is.

-: Such a drill is pointless if you don’t go slow. And since it’s a kinda “sparring”, a lot of people, especially when they’re overcame, try to “win”, when this drill is not about “winning” or “loosing”, it’s about working.
Same o’, they let their ego speaking, and it’s too bad.

2) Some of ’em are full contact sparring with MMA gloves, with controlled impact.
MMA gloves are the minimum, and people often wear mouth and shin guards.
If it’s full contact without any sort of control, we wear helmets.

+: The full contact shows what reality is, something the flow drill doesn’t.
It also shows which techniques suits you the best and what techniques you perform under pressure.

-: Can be pretty dangerous.

[nkfr]

Re: Strengths and weakness of KM

quote kylestyle913:

i think maybe you misunderstood me…

I think I did, my bad.
And I think I agree with you: IMO, retzev is the key to overcome an opponent.
With the combatives, those are the strength of KM.

[nkfr]

Re: Strengths and weakness of KM

quote kylestyle913:

nkfr…i think many times people overestimate others and underestimate themselves….just b/c you are a world class grappler of wrestler doesn’t mean that i can’t or wouldn’t be able to, eye gouge, groin strike/manipulate, or bite/headbutt…these are things that regardless of your position in the fight you typically find yourself capable of executing..and if you think u will continue to set up that sweet bent arm bar after i crush your nuts, then i say lets demo this encounter..

And a lot of people overestimate and overate their training while underestimate others.
Don’t get me wrong, I am a kravist, and I train KM escapes and techniques.
I am a poor grappler and I can barely perform a juji gatame.
But what I can say for sure is that a great deal of kravist assume that a lot of techniques they train are magic, especially eye gouging and strikes to the groin.
It’s a fact that the strikes to the groin are probably the most overrated techniques in all the martial arts, while it’s sometimes quite inefficient (adrenaline, alcohol, etc…lower the pain quite much).
Same for the eye gouges, I remember a Pride fighter submitting his opponent after losing his eye.

I am not saying that this strikes are inefficient against a grappler, in fact they would probably work on most of the grapplers.
My point is that there’s a good chance that they won’t work on a very grappler.

[nkfr]

Re: Strengths and weakness of KM

quote phlegmon27:

How well to you grapple with thumbs in your eyes? Just wondering.

I don’t agree.
If your opponent is a “good” grappler/wrestler/whatever, you probably won’t have a shot to gouge his eye, kick his groin, etc….
It’s always the same: Krav Maga is a generalist martial art, while boxing, grappling, etc…are specialist martial arts, in the extend that they only work an aspect of the fight.
It’s not magical: you can’t train in order to face a wide range of threats, including weapons, and train to face a world class competitor.

And there’s not so much to do against a guy who is very good in his “field”…except working on your locks escapes and your strategy (e.g. not brawling with a world class grappler).
You don’t want to face a pro grappler, boxer, wrestler, kicker,etc… period. 😉

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