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Re: krav maga in Huntsville, Al.

Unfortunately I was playing around with my nephew a few weeks ago and placed him in a head lock he could not get away from. Just playing around with him, however it pointed out my neck injury is not any better, severe pain for several days. Evidently a pinched nerve.

I will be talking to the doc to determine what can be done and what my level of any training or excercise can be.

The good news is I now know I can headlock someone bigger than me if in a life/death situation. Will hurt like heck for several weeks after that, but will still be alive:):

Still got a little upper arm strength left…..

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Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote Jeremy Stafford:

Blade Tech makes those, and they are a great tool. I know that Ruger revolvers are shipped with a plastic disk that fits over the cylinder face, buy I dont think that it would prevent a round from being chambered. Maybe somebody a little handier and a little more creative than me will think of something. Although, maybe some bright orange Snap Caps would suffice?

I have no problem using snap caps. Especially if the use is verified by 2 or more responsible people and no ammunition is in the area – at all. A-zoom makes zome for revolvers as well, not bright orange but bright purple.

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Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote Jeremy Stafford:

As far as using a real gun goes, I think I’d be more comfortable if it was a dedicated trainer with the firing pin removed. I just don’t know if I trust anybody else that much….LOL.

I won’t argue there. However for real autos they make plastic barrel inserts that prevent a live round from being loaded and of course fired. Maybe somebody can come up with something for a revolver.

Treat all guns as if they are loaded:)

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Re: Gun defense question

On an auot grabbng the slide would not hurt much unless you got some skin pinched in there. No where near the blast of a revolver. On an auto the casing will expand and fill the barrel forcing all of the pressure out of the barrel.

Just don’t get your hand behind the slide where it can “hit” you on recoil. Can leave a nasty cut. I know I would not hesitate in a life or death situation.

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Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote Jeremy Stafford:

I can try it with a .500 and a pot roast. I’ll videotape it!

Go for it. Would love to see it.

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Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote Cottonwood-Combat:

GK – In case you’re not just kidding: WARNING GRAPHIC!!!!

It shows a hand with the top portion of the thumb missing, for those who are weak stomached, you’ve been warned.

http://www.okshooters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24853

The link goes to a forum thread. The link for the pic’s is at the bottom of the first post on the thread.

BTW – This one shows it was supposedly a .460 and not a .454 Casull.

Jeremy – Sombody beat you to it; here’s a hot dog test: I’d still like to see the pot roast though!
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=665218 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGSExunzskg

Enjoy!!

I was going to post those as well… I am not sure about the hot dog. I think the pot roast has been proven to closely resemble the human skin structure. A hot dog is just compressed junk. But.. It does give you an idea of the pressures that can be generated.

I would love to see the pot roast as well. Hmmm… Maybe we should check the MythBusters site and see if they have anything on this:)

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Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote Cottonwood-Combat:

Firstly, in regard to ‘blowback’ I was just trying to determine the source of the issue you all were discussing. Being revolver iliterate and all :dunno:; I wasn’t sure by the discussion, unless I missed something, if you all were referring to an identical problem to the one described with the photos or something else. Sorry about not being more clear on that. I wonder, instead of an air soft, what about a starter gun? We used to use them to proof K-9’s. Works well for that, but the dog isn’t grabbing the gun….

No problem… I hesitated recommending any gun capable of firing something that could hurt someone for the fear of starting a discussion on the possiblity of shooting someone.

As long as proper percautions are taken you could even use a real revolver. I know I will get flamed for that, but properly done to ensure its not loaded and no ammo in the area at all it can be done. After all, I think the picture on the forum banner is using a real gun:)

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Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote Cottonwood-Combat:

The cylinder of a wheel gun spins as the hammer is retracted to the cocked position whether SA or DA, correct?

Correct.

quote :

Then the concern is with blow back as in the little article that came with the whole thumb pic thing, correct? Or is it with gas escaping the front of the cylinder? In which my following questions would probably be moot.

The one I was referring to was gas escaping from the front of the cylinder. I am not familiar with blowback on a revolver so not sure what you are reffering to there.

quote :

So then, the usual KM method with a revolver is to grab the cylinder for the disarm. Is it not possible to also use part of the grabbing hand as a sort of hamer block to prevent the discharge? I know it may not work every time, nothing can, but is it not a reasonable option? I know it would hurt, as I have dropped a hammer on my thumb (unloaded) in order to see what it would be like. I had a similar question with this technique a few years ago. I just don’t know enough about revolvers to know if this is acceptable or foolish.

I think everyone has done that:):. If you can get you hand in there yes it will prevent it from firing. I think what Jeremy was saying may be true in this case as well. By trying to move your hand to place in the hammer you are adding more time to allow reaction.

The idea thing would be to do a force-on-force. If there is an Airsoft equivalent for a revolver (which I have not seen) and just see if you can redirect and grab the hammer before it falls.

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Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote Jeremy Stafford:

Magnum,
I just re-read my last post and it comes off a bit confrontational, thats not my intent. I simply believe that your experience with the escaping gas is not the norm and should not be considered in the brief amount of time you have to act on the threat. Gun guys are a dying breed, so I’d rather talk guns than argue.

Was not taken that way. We are discussing a very important issue and I understand where you are coming from. I am here to learn about Krav Maga and when things go against what I have always been taught, then questions will arise.

You are actually changing my mind some, so don’t stop now:):.

Makes me want to order some ballistic gel and do a test now….Of course I would have to buy a .460 to do it…

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Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote Cottonwood-Combat:

The AD to which Magnum refers to sounds like a Sypathetic Discharge rather than an Accidental Discharge (which I personally believe is really a Negligent Discharge). It can happen in relation to a Startle Affect Discharge of the firearm as well. In the example given though, the officer was cuffing and fired his weapon, correct? This would have been due to a Sympathetic Reflex which in my experience has little to nothing to do with trigger pull poundage. It’s the body’s unilateral reflex to one side of the body doing something and the other follows suit. So as one hand was cinching a cuff (probably with an index finger) the index finger on the other bent in like fashion thus pressing the trigger. So I am really not following the change from single action to double action requirement by Agencies. I know I am off point a little here, but I want to better understand. Was this decision before the LE community better understood the different reasons for non-intentional discharges of a firearm? I’ve never really been a revolver shooter and so I am not too savy on the LE history with them.

You are correct, I was trying to think of sympathetic reflex. It’s not that the decision was before they understood it, it is that under stress the likelyhood of the AD is very high or real while in SA mode. And yes I am getting off topic as well, but really the issue on that is trigger control, the finger should not have been on the trigger anyway..

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Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

Jeremy,

If you have some info that discredits those pics please PM me I would be interested to pass it on to other instructors I know. However, the people you are quoting as “in the know” seem to be close to the mfg. Remember, there are always 2 sides to the story and for years Ford denied the Pinto would explode:)

I can understand your comments on the 2in J frame and it makes sense. With a 2″ barrel the bullet exists much faster, therefore the blast from the cylinder will be less as the pressure will drop when the bullet exists the barrel and the remaining powder burns outside the barrel. However, on a 6″ gun like the Ruger that bit me the pressure will build up a lot more as the powder continues to burn as the bullet goes down the barrel. In my case the blast was enough knock my hand back, had a very nasty burn and it felt like someone had smashed it with a hammer. That was with a Ruger 357. Lesson learned, that gun is too big to shoot one handed for me and it is strictly a range gun.

You are incorrectly comparing trigger pulls. A 2 lb trigger and a 6 lb trigger is different only when firing in DA mode, the weight of the trigger is insignificant in SA mode. The length of the trigger pull is the issue. I was referring to SA mode which when a revolver is in SA mode the length of pull is very short – virtually no slack. Just a slight tap on the trigger and the gun will fire. That is why most Police departments started requiring LEOs carry a DA pistol. Because there were several incidents where a LEO went to handcuff someone and the reflex of handcuffing was enough to cause their other hand to tighten and fire the SA revolver killing the guy that was handcuffed. I think it was the LAPD that started that practice over 30 years ago.

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Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

quote vwr32:

Man, she’s kicking your butt too.

I was going to say that, then I did notice how big his arm was and decided not too.:OhMy:

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Re: Gun Disarm – Revolvers

I can see the resemblance in the photo:) Absolutely line of fire is a must getting away from that muzzle is first priority.

Owning a Python I am sure you know the blast that comes from it in the dark. I have seen people almost blow their thumbs off from that blast, and in fact, I have actually seen a thumb blown off from a .460 (pics). Although I doubt many robbers are going to be using a .460 to rob you with.

I would think the recoil would be to your advantage, the BG may not be able to hold the gun and fight the recoil as well. If they are not trained in one handed shooting especially.

My guess is with a revolver, redirecting the hand (thus the muzzle) like is being done in your picture above is the better approach.

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Re: krav maga in Huntsville, Al.

Already ordered some material:)

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Re: Looking for classes

quote Giant Killer:

In KM you will learn how to do a gun takeaway from various positions. You can then decide whether to simply run away (if possible), draw your own gun, or maybe use the assailants weapon, although that may carry risks.

If you are a firearm instructor, perhaps you’ll qualify for law enforcement classes. They may teach you some additional weapon retention techniques there.

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Giantkiller

Thanks after looking over the videos around and reading more, it does seem to be something that interests me more than traditional Martial Arts, just no official training close by.

Although I am an Instructor I am not in law enforcement. But if that can get me into more advanced classes, then I would not object 🙂

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