@binagaki
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I’m going to avoid the police procedure/hypothetical questions because that can lead down a really negative path. However, I can comment on the taser.
A few of us had the pleasure to be tased by LA County Sheriff’s finest at Advanced Law Enforcement training, and I can tell you the experience is far from easy.
The first thing we were told was that after being tased you would be fine. That’s true to a point, but it depends on the situation. We were in a controlled setting, watching other people get tased, so I would say that the adrenaline was at a minimum (or at least as minimal as it can be when getting ready for the 5 second ride). When we were done we had no real need or want to get up… we were just happy the pain was gone. You can chalk up other people laughing after to the want to show that they were man (or woman) enough to handle it.
I had the probe on my ankle and waist, so the majority of the shock went through my legs, but also part of my upper body. For the 5 seconds I was pretty much grunting uncontrollably, and I had no control over my body. My legs were locked completely, and my upper body was mostly locked up. About the only thing that I could move was my head.
Once the shock ended I collapsed, happy that the pain was gone. What hit me more than anything was how tired I was. My muscles were contracting harder then they ever had, and small muscles all around my legs and back that don’t usually contract that hard were extremely tired.
Would I comply immediately after something like that? Yes. However, someone that is on drugs, drunks, etc., may be less willing to comply because while they are temporarily incapacitated by the taser (it works on the central nervous system, so it will always affect the person regardless of any chemicals they have in their system) they may not be feeling the pain (or they may only feel a reduced amount).
One of the things that should be happening when a person is tased is that they should be immediately controlled and cuffed by another officer if available. You can touch a person while they are being tased, so the moment the shock ends they need to be controlled.
How many times can you get tased before you die? I don’t think that this will ever happen. There are no reported incidents of death due to taser use, and Taser International has tested the product on all different types of people, including some with pacemakers. Since the taser affect the CNS, it’s overloading the nerve impulses and forcing the muscles to contract. While I’m not well-versed in human physiology, my guess would be that a coherent person would pass-out from either fatigue or nervous system overload after repeated rides. Someone hopped up on the other hand may keep getting up, making control during and immediately following the tasing important.
So what do you do if you run into a thug with a taser? The simple answer is to treat it like a gun. It functions the same way (trigger press leading to a projectile), and it has the same shape and danger zone.
Ahhh, disagreements with intelligence… I love it!
kravjeff, you said, \”Why not teach weapons retention to those of us who are licensed to carry? To make that license a prerequisite to receive the training?\”
I definitely see your point in this, but the problem that I see is that every state is different in how they license CCWs. In some states the vetting process is minimal and it’s easy to obtain a license. In others a CCW is hard to come by, and your background is checked very thoroughly. Because of these differences it’s difficult to apply a general rule that people with a CCW should be allowed to learn gun retention techniques.
You’re right in saying that we cannot show a causal link between officer death by handgun and bad guys learning weapon retention. However, if 296 of 594 officer killings in 2002 are occurring between 0 and 5 feet (according to the FBI UCR data), then that means there were at least 296 opportunities where a bad guy could have used some type of weapon retention technique.
You do make one important comment – \”If licensed to carry civilians learned weapons retention and it cost the life of one officer over 10 years, but saved the lives of 10 innocent women and children during the same time period, I would argue that it would be worth it to have taught those civilians.\” This is an argument similar to ones I have made in support of CCWs. Admittedly though, when making this argument it’s inherently flawed because you’re starting to play the \”what if\” game. I could very easily turn this around and say, \”If teaching weapon retention to even licensed civilians endangered the lives of 10 officers over a ten year period but saved only one person over that same time frame, then it’s definitely not worth teaching.\”
I used to carry when I lived in Virginia, but I stopped after I started teaching Krav Maga for the simple fact that my carrying of a weapon introduced a whole new dimension of worry to my own personal defense. When carrying a weapon the realm of what can go wrong instantly increases exponentially – now I had to worry about losing the weapon in a fight, getting shot with my own gun, worrying about where my rounds would go if I fired the weapon, etc. Without a gun I don’t have to worry about those things, and I feel that I’m safer for it. However, this is my own feeling, and even though I don’t carry a weapon anymore (I can’t anyway since I live in Maryland now), I understand why people want to and I support their choice.
For gun retention to become part of the general curriculum, there would have to be a major paradigm shift in American culture (and laws/statutes) to the point where a large percentage of people are carrying weapons. However, the chances of this happening are pretty slim.
kravjeff, we definitely agree on a lot of things (CCWs, etc.), and there are a few that we don’t. Your arguments are sound (even though I may disagree and vice versa), but at least you understand that our job is to keep officers safe. Here’s my question that I definitely don’t know the answer to and maybe you can do some research on this. Of people that have CCWs and are involved in violent situations, what percentage of them actually get into struggles with their weapons? While I don’t have numbers, officers disarm bad guys all the time, and I do think that the incidents of officers disarming or attemping to disarms bad guys are significantly more numerous than private citizens carrying getting disarmed by bad guys.
I would check out this book – The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy by David Kopel – if you haven’t already read it. The focus of the book is on gun control laws which isn’t necessarily our topic of discussion here, but it gives a great comparison between differen gun laws throughout the world and is corrollary to this conversation.
Re: Civilian weapons retention
quote \”jburtonpdx\:In the case of a law abiding citizen carrying a firearm would it not behoove that person to have the best training available for that firearm?Absolutely. If you decide that you want to carry a firearm for personal protection, then you should seek out the best training possible.
quote \”jburtonpdx\:However that still does not answer the question of would it not behoove the good guy to have the best possible and most thorough training as is practical?Yes, it would behoove the good guy to get the best training possible, and I applaud any person that carries concealed that seeks out training so they can learn how to be safer. However, the Krav Maga Force Training Division made the decision that gun retention techniques are a restricted area of teaching. You can go into a million arguments in either direction, but the simple fact is that we don’t want to put any officer’s lives at risks. To me that’s an argument that can’t be beat.
GiantKiller does bring up a valid question though in asking how great a danger would it be to police officers since they are trained to keep their distance. In reality, while officers are trained to keep their distance as best as possible, many elements of their job require them to get close to a suspect (arrests, searches, etc.), so space is not an option quite frequently. Space is a luxury that officers don’t have very often, and when it comes to the nitty-gritty of their jobs (i.e. arresting someone) space is non-existant.
The next question is about how many instances are there really where officers are doing hand defenses against armed suspects. I don’t think there is hard data on this, but we do know that officers are killed most often from very short distances (less than five feet), so the potentional for them to use Krav Maga techniques is quite substantial
Carrying a concealed gun is something that is highly regulated throughout the United States, and in many states it is virtually impossible to get a CCW license (and that’s even if they’re available at all). If you live in a state where CCW is not allowed, there’s no benefit to teaching students gun retention because they’re not allowed to carry.
Alright, so the folks from Virginia are now saying, \”What about us? We can get CCWs here, so shouldn’t we be allowed to see this type of training?\” Good argument, but again, should we possibly put officer’s lives at risk so that a small minority of the law-abiding population can learn weapon retention. Absolutely not. And if you’re sitting there thinking, \”well, that’s just dumb because I want to carry, so I should learn weapon retention\” then you’ve put quite a bit of thought into the responsibilities associated with carrying concealed and I applaud you for your foresight. However, as a Force Instructor my job is to train officers how to be safe, and I never want to put them in danger because of what I’m teaching.
And let me combat the next question quickly – don’t we put officers in danger by teaching gun defenses? Yes, we potentially do, but that can be said about any technique we teach. However, we do know that civilians are held up at gun point frequently, so the benefits of teaching gun defenses definitely outweigh the downsides. How often are civilians who carry concealed having to worry about retention in a self-defense situation? I don’t have the answer to that question, but I would venture to guess the number is insignificant in comparison to the number of people held up at gun point.
To put it simply, no Krav Maga instructors wants to put law enforcement officers in danger. Gun retention may be a useful skill, but it would be useful to such a minority that it’s not worth opening it up to everyone. If you’re that worried about gun retention the simple answer is to not carry. There are enough techniques already in the system to help keep you safe.
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[quote=\”chicochi\”]woo! Finally a topic on how great KravMD Columbia is. 😉
I may be biased (just a little) but our school is fantastic. I can’t imagine having nicer facilities or better instructors!
Watch out, you might make Jeff’s head bigger 😉
I have to say that I am both lucky and honored to have been able to work with Marni over the past few years. She was always honest and strong, and pushed me to be a better instructor any time I ever trained with her. No one I know could match her passion for Krav Maga, and it is her love for what we do that I will always remember.
I guess it’s fitting that the last time I saw Marni I gave her a big hug and ended our conversation with \”Thank you.\”
My deepest sympathies to Darren and the girls and to the rest of our Krav Maga family.
16 is usually the youngest a student can be that I will train. The most important skill they need is maturity because some of the content is more adult. Drills can be stressful, class is fast paced, and it can be very easy for someone younger than 16 to get overwhelmed. For the most part I can trust my students to NOT use what they learn to show off because they understand the ramifications. A 13 year old may not be able to make that distinction, and he would benefit more from a structured martial arts class that teaches life skills along with the techniques.
I would be very apprehensive to use a gun in a situation like that. There are a lot of other people around, and there is no way you can guarantee their safety when you start firing.
The best bet if you were to intervene would be to go hands on and/or use another weapon more suited to close situations (like a knife). You just have the remember that if you hit the big guy I can guarantee that you would have to deal with the woman too.
This type of problem was very common in my sparring classes, and the way to get past it (like many have said already) is to build up to the free sparring. If someone has never had any experience sparring before, it’s almost cruel to throw them into the mix without some type of an introduction.
Level 2 is when I will start having students do VERY controlled sparring in normal classes because they now understand several defensive techniques that can be used in a free-sparring situation. One way I will do this is have one student throw a set number of punches while their partner only defends (all with boxing gloves/sparring gear on). This allows a student new to sparring to slowly be introduced to the concept of possibly getting hit without bringing the stress level too high. The drills can then evolve into adding additional strikes, mixing of leg and hand techniques, etc. Slowly we ratchet up the stress level with the general rule that a student should successfully defend about 70% of the time. This allows for some contact to occur (you need to know what it’s like to get hit), but also keep their spirits up because they are able to defend again most of the attacks.
As students get better I will move to a more free-sparring situation, perhaps only allowing hand techniques for one minute. Again, slowly bring up the stress level, and students will become more comfortable.
When you get into the sparring classes, I’m very vigilant to make sure that students are paired up correctly. Some like to go harder than others, and I will let them pair off according to skill on their own. If I notice someone is getting creamed I will either: 1) tell the more advanced student to bring it down a notch, or 2) have them switch partners. It’s important to note that students should spar with people better than themselves because they will learn a lot, but it should never get out of hand. Toward the end of a fight class I will put two students in the middle and let them go at about 70% speed. This is a very controlled environment because there are only two students sparring, and I can call time at any point. There are times when some students will go almost 100%, and if I have two students that can take it they’re more than welcome to beat the snot out of one another (and usually they enjoy it).
I will also try and mismatch students in these pairings, pitting more advanced students against beginners. Again, you always need to spar someone better than yourself to get better, but I make sure that my more advanced students know that this isn’t a free card to look good and beat on someone. My more experienced students will know that it’s a learning exercise, and they will adjust accordingly.
If for whatever reason things get out of hand (normally one person going to far), I will immediately call time and punish the offending party with some good ol’ fashioned PT (laying with their feet off the ground 6\” for a few minutes usually does the trick). This helps keep everyone in check.
Yes, sometimes students get annoyed that they aren’t always paired up with someone of equal level, but that’s part of training. A more advanced student can focus on good technique, or work on different defensive moves while the beginner gets used to standing toe-to-toe with someone. I also like to handicap advanced students (e.g. only allowing them to punch, no kicks), to keep them on their toes.
It comes down to the instructor taking control and making sure the student is comfortable. If he isn’t for whatever reason, it is the duty of the instructor to step in and bring that person up to the point where they see sparring as a learning experience.
For speed I picked up Loren Christensen’s Solo Training and Speed Training (wow… I sound like an infomercial rigth now, sorry guys). In one of them (I don’t remember which), Christensen discusses the concept of redlining. Basically you pick a combo (or any other action that you want to speed up), and move through it 10 times at 75% speed focusing on perfect form. Take a quick rest and then do the same combo at 90% speed. Quick rest again, and then do the combo and what you consider to be your fastest speed with 100% focus on form. For your fourth set, push to 110% speed, focusing on the speed of the combo and not so much on form. For your final set, do the combo again as fast you can, but go back to making sure your form is perfect.
The concept is this: You build to top speed with perfect form, and then you push past it (this is your redline). You then immediately pull back to executing the combo as fast you can with perfect form, and what you’ll notice is that your 100% speed with 100% form the second time around will be a little bit faster than before. Continue to do this with all different combos, and eventually you’ll start to notice an overall increase in your speed (hands, feet, whatever). I’ve done this for a while now both by myself and with students, and the results have always been positive. When I do drills like this in pairs pad holders often see a noticeable increase in the speed of their partners.
I also wholeheartedly agree with AFLT that relaxation is the key. Tensed muscles move slower, so you have to relax, relax, relax. Students (especially beginners) tense up a lot, and as soon as they start to get comfortable there is a natural increase in speed. AFLT’s running program also looks to be very sound in building that explosive running speed.
There are a few weightraining techniques that can help you build explosive power which will result in increasing the speed of your strikes. The one I like the most is to move weights slowly when on the negative (i.e. lowering the bar in a bench press) and then exploding into the positive motion as quickly as you can. With this method you will be able to lift more weight for more reps, and it helps to build that explosive power (great for squats, bench press, etc). However, this is not meant to replace the standard controlled lifts. It’s meant as an alternative workout.
Apologies for the long reply, so in short, check out the books that I listed and see what you think. Take from them what you like, and build a program that works best for you. As your strength increases so will your balance, and continually work on your techniques that are giving you trouble. If you find that you’re falling over while trying roundkicks, lower the kick to the point where you’re stable, and then move up slowly. There’s no point in trying to kick someone’s head off if you fall over!
And if it makes you feel any better, high kicks are useless in a real street fight, so as long as you can kick to the waist without any problems you’re all set 🙂
Good luck and be safe!!
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quote \”AFLT\:Flexibility is largely limited by genetics, but can be enhanced by stretching post-workout.This I don’t necessarily agree with. Flexibility is a matter of muscle strength and really nothing more. Some people think that they can’t do side splits (or front splits), but can you prop one leg up on a chair at a 90 degree angle? Most people can unless they have an actual physical problem (hip disorder, degenerative disease, etc.). What stops you from doing a full split, or utilizing full range of motion for any body part, is that your body knows it doesn’t have the strength to hold that position, so it tightens the muscles to prevent injury. Building strength is the key to flexibility.
Stretching post-workout is also good, but you don’t want to think of it as something you do just after your workout. Stretching is a workout all by itself, but it’s best reserved for after a workout because you are building strength.
quote \”AFLT\:Pre-stretching does little, and a gentle, gradually building warm-up accompanied by stretching will prepare you for physical activity, but to increase flexibility you must stretch diligently post-workout.There are some that will argue that stretching of any sort before a workout is completely useless. The only stretches that I do before a workout are dynamic stretches because they help to warm the body up, and they help to bring back your full range of motion. Exercises such as leg swings, trunk rotation, etc., are great for getting you ready for your workout. One recommendation is to do dynamic stretches when you wake up in the morning because they will help to keep you loose all day.
quote \”AFLT\:Again, it’s hard to describe, and I don’t recall the exact technical term (I’ll try and look it up and post later) but there is a method of contract-relax stretching that requires a partner that is MOST effective at increasing flexibility, because it sidesteps/short circuits the muscles natural neurological response and tightening to protect itself from extreme lengthening, i.e. strain.What AFLT is referring to is isometric stretching (however I don’t like using a partner). There are a few different methods that can be considered isometric stretching, all of which should be done after your workout or as a workout by themselves.
Standard isometric stretching involves getting to your maximum stretch and then tensing your muscles, especially those that you want to stretch. After tensing for a few seconds at 100%, relax the tension and then increase the stretch. One good addition to this is that you take slow shallow breaths while contracting, and then as you release, exhale deeply and then increase the stretch. Continue to do this until you can no longer increase your stretch (this will be mostly limited by your pain tolerance).
The method that I like is what Pavel Tsatsouline (he wrote Relax Into Stretch) calls forced relaxation. It’s just like standard isometric stretching, except that when you contract your muscles you contract with 1/3 to 2/3 strength. Continue to hold the tension until it becomes unbearable (it’s very common for the stretched body parts to start shaking and can take anywhere from a few seconds to a few minutes), and then again exhale deeply and increase the stretch. Rinse, repeat, and stop when you can no longer increase the stretch.
I used to use partners with these stretches, but I’ve realized that the chance for injury is high because it is very easy for your partner to take you too far. Any individual doing these stretches correctly can very easily reach maximum range of motion, build strength, and increase their overall flexibility. I would recommend the following books:
Pavel Tsatsouline – Relax Into Stretch
Thomas Kurz – Stretching ScientificallyPersonally I like Pavel’s book better because it’s more straightforward and he lays out the stretches nicely. Kurz goes more into the science of the whole thing, and it can take some time to glean out what you want.
Krav Maga MD now has an informational site available at http://www.kravmd.com. Our first location will be opening in Owings Mill this spring with more locations to follow. If you have any questions, feel free to contact us at [email protected]!
16 students is a good solid number. Large enough that you can keep the energy up in the room, but not so large that you’re getting lost in the shuffle.
Have fun, and welcome to the Krav Maga family!
Honestly it will depend on mat space and the number of instructors available. A class of 30 can easily be managed by one instructor if the room is big enough, but if it starts getting cramped because of the number of people it becomes much harder to control.
I like classes to be around 25 students, but if I was consistently winding up with 30+ in a class I would probably bring in a second instructor or start adding more classes to the schedule!
