[jsumm54421]

Re: Is Krav Training Effective?…Enough?

Great questions and answers. No training is real unless someone is really out to do serious harm to another. If you are not in fear for your life in training then how real is the realest training? Training the mind and spirit not to break down under extreme pressure is the key in good self defense training.

Training to complete exhaustion and beyond puts people in front of their biggest opponent; The man in the mirror. The negative spirit that says “I can’t” or “I give up” is the one you want to constantly face and defeat in your training.

To think that you are prepared for anything because you feel you have a hardcore physical training program could prove to be a mistake. I’ve seen so many people get hit with things much harder and heavier than a fist.

[jsumm54421]

Re: Jeet Kune Do and Krav Maga

Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do has techniques, but Jeet Kune Do in itself is just a concept. Saying that Jeet Kune Do is like Krav Maga can be a stretch depending on how Krav is being taught.

As stated earlier, Jeet Kune Do is a concept that is rooted in personal expression through whatever training an individual has studied. Style centric, one size fits all approach to self defense is not what Jeet Kune Do represents. It’s about an individuals personal voyage in pursuit of learning how to defend themselves using anything they may have been exposed to. Also, Jeet Kune Do teaches that preset defenses can prevent an individual from being able to adapt on the fly to a real attack.

Krav uses a small set of techniques to address a variety of attacks which is a bit different.

[jsumm54421]

Re: going from commando krav maga to krav maga

Kior,

I want to answer your questions on the other debate thread.

Again -I know that IKMA is unlike KMWW in many ways yet there are noticable common threads. CKM has a totally different approach from all of these organizations, however, there is at least one common thread. Let me see if I can do it in a simple manner. This is not about what is better, but, what is the difference.

When facing multiple attackers, an individual’s chance of success is very low. This is such an important concept in CKM because it teaches that one has only a second or two to launch an attack before being overwelmed by multiple attackers. Engaging with an attacker any longer would prevent one from being able to address other attackers. Yes, one or two strikes and get out of there! CKM views staying engaged for a period of time with one attacker creates a “tunnel vision” situation leaving one unaware of the dangers lurking from others. Students are taught to quickly disengage to add distance between themselves and the attackers, thus, adding precious seconds of additonal reaction time to deal with other potential threats.

Ground defenses have a max time of 5 seconds to be executed and students are timed by their instructors. If the students take longer that 5 seconds to get off the ground then the entire class must punch, stomp and kick the student until told to stop. There are no combatives that require one to stay engaged with an attacker for more that a second or two. For the record, I have yet to see any Judo throws CKM.

CKM has different views on preemptive striking and 90% of the techniques are different from those in the various Krav Maga systems.

Unlike CKM, most Krav Maga systems add some of the most basic techniques from Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling and Small Circle Jui Jitsu to name a few. These techniques create a nice list of combatives. The key here is that Krav is interested in the simple techniques that are easy to learn in a short amount of time. Only techniques that one can execute with little effort will be useful in a real life attack. Although, many of these strikes belong to other systems, the intended targets of the strikes is what adds a bit of uniqueness to Krav Maga. CKM shares in this same understanding of the importance of attacking points of weakness.

The common thread in CKM and other forms of Krav Maga is in added reality to attacks by pressure testing a students execution of a technique. This approach is unlike most traditional martial arts and sport arts as real, mentally taxing, pressure situations are created to test ones ability to successfully execute techniques. This is where students learn that complex, awkward techniques will be of little use to them in a real life attack situation. This is the essence of reality base systems and is what Krav Maga is most respected for and is the core of all CKM training.

I train in many systems / styles so I won’t go into why I do this and what’s best because I know I’m on an island with my views. (jkd)
I am into self defense and enjoy open dialog with others who are serious about their training.

My final word is this: The street predator has only one or two techniques, but, he is a master of these techniques. His techniques are tried, tested and proven! Train in what you believe in, and remember that the system and techniques are as only as good as the person doing them.
__________________

[jsumm54421]

Re: Commando Krav Maga / CKM / Moni Aizik

ol! I don’t think I’m arguing and don’t expect to win anyone over. Heck, I’m just trying to defend mulitple attackers and get out alive.(lol)

Again, I am not informed on the military issues and on the outside looking in. If there are some false statements than time will tell. If there comes a time where wording uses have to changed, again, we proceed accordingly. This is expected in these systems.

For the record, I guess if I were hiding something from someone I may be embarassed if it were to be exposed. No, that’s not me. However, everyone in every system I train in knows all of the happenings surrounding these issues. We train openly so this would just be good information to have.

[jsumm54421]

Re: Commando Krav Maga / CKM / Moni Aizik

I really enjoy your comments. Hey, the military thing is your big issue not mine. I don’t know who has actual affiliation in the Israeli Military.

I have no need to use any false claims to bring in students. We respect all systems and it is forbidden to say one style is better than another at our school. We understand that training in one system, does not mean rejecting other systems. Our floor is always open for other instructors, of all styles, to teach and all students to come an train with us. Everyone learns and everyone respects everyone. Also, everyone of my students are encouraged to visit other schools and instructors. Many of my students train in other places and various styles. I am proud to say that my students exercise their own free will to train in what they feel suits them best. I don’t see anything more honest

quote morkravi:

its just so funny and sad to see how badly moni’s student and instructors are trying to force themselvs to beleive that moni is the real deal and that they were not scammed by him and commando krav maga.

jsumm,

sorry my friend, but youve been scammed. moni has never had anything to do with krav maga not in the civilian world and most definately not in the israeli military, you ask how many instructors in the states actually have israeli military experience? moni doesnt have any real military experience, so what’s your point, unless you consider a jobnik real military experience? ask moni what a jobnik is, im sure he will be happy to answer for you, at least he has enough expertise to answer that question.

as for litigation, moni would have already taken everyone to court that has said the ‘truth’ about him and his system. instead, when pino learned that his military record was found he packed up and ran to venezuela instead of stand up for his students and instructors.

you are right that this is just the begining, because when moni is taken to court for fraud, so will all of his instructors that keep advertising his false claims to bring in students and take thier mony. are you prepared for that jsumm?

[jsumm54421]

Re: Commando Krav Maga / CKM / Moni Aizik

Sasha,

That’s a great question. People here will comment on systems they never trained in, although there are locations near to them they can visit to be more informed. There is another post that addressing this issue.

quote Sasha K:

As far as I can tell from reading these posts, most are quite convinced that moni (or whatever he is called) has lied extensively about his past. There is, of course, a strong argument to be made for not training under an instructor simply because he is a liar/lacks integrity. But what about his techniques, taken at face value? Does anybody have any experience actually TRAINING in his system? Are the techniques any good or are they crap I think this is a different debate – is anybody talking about this anywhere? I have learned all there is about the politics of it all, but in my mind it does not necessarily follow that BECAUSE he lied, therefore his system (ie. techniques) are rubbish (this argument has been made by many). My girlfriend went to a few CKM classes when she was in the UK for 6 months and said the techniques were really great for someone like her (ie. quite small, not strong…). So, can anyone tell me anything about the techniques in an of themselves, while refraining from simply saying that he lied and therefore they are bad? I do apologise if this isnt the right debate for these kind of questions, but perhaps a new one can be started?

Thank you!

Also, when exactly is his military record coming out? It seems to be very eagerly anticipated!

[jsumm54421]

Re: Commando Krav Maga / CKM / Moni Aizik

You guys don’t understand that these forums are bias and I must refrain from certain subjects. Also, I don’t feel that it’s my place and do not care to do anything of that nature. However, the buzz on Krav Maga is that everyone is fake!

http://www.forward.com/articles/14853/

Please comment:

Please, stop acting like there is some alliance of official Krav Maga organizations. I have trained in KMWW for many years and took so much crap from various organizations for doing so. Litigation comes easy to the world of Krav Maga and, yes, it’s just the beginning.

[jsumm54421]

Re: Commando Krav Maga / CKM / Moni Aizik

Hey Eric,
The point is that the lying issues of Krav Maga and/or CKM is not everyone’s top priority like some may think. Every system of Krav Maga has been called on the carpet as not being “Real” Krav Maga. Not authentic! Who is telling the truth? Krav Maga in the US is viewed as “fake” by many training in Israel. I can start a thread with quotes and links and it would get taken down ASAP! Show me a system of Krav Maga and I will show you someone trashing it.
This has always been and will always be, unless there is some type of commission set up like suggested in another post. Since many think this will never happen, I don’t see an end to this bickering.

I don’t think about this because it has nothing to do with why I train and my students train.

quote Eric Joyce:

I really don’t think that is the point of this thread, whether he was Israeli or not or whether he has actual combat experience. The point of this thread, is about someone fabricating/boasting/lying, etc., In this case, it’s Moni. Your argument by pointing to his other training and the result it had ex: training a UFC fighter, misses the point….he lied. That’s really it. Case closed. I don’t care what his background is, who he trained, whatever…he lied. Do other schools, such as TMA schools, do this sort of stuff? Yep, they sure do. Justifying bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior doesn’t help out Moni or CKM. I too look forward to seeing additional evidence come forth.

[jsumm54421]

Re: Commando Krav Maga / CKM / Moni Aizik

This is so funny! It seems like many people in this forum feel that an instructors Israeli military background is the key reason why people train in Krav Maga or CKM? For some, yes, but for others, like myself, I must go deeper than that.

First, I question how many times military people actually have to handle things with their hands. They have guns and many other wonderful weapons. Next, how many KM instructors in the states have actual Isreali military experience? Obviously, their students came to train with them for some other reason. Also, if this was a huge concern, then maybe you should train in CKM under a head instructor that had actual Israeli Military Krav Maga experience! (lol) Yes, he knows Krav Maga too, from first hand experience, along with a host of other things.

I have to stand strong and say that I don’t agree with the knock on other martial arts styles. I’ve trained with Judo guys and understand what it is and is not. Everyone studying Krav Maga can learn a lot from Judo. CKM is not Judo. Please don’t get misinformed by reading this forum. Jujitsu, Judo and extreme fighting like MMA systems and UFC should be viewed with respect. Are Krav instructors here implying that since these systems have rules, they will not standup to anyone training in Krav Maga? This would be foolishness. I respect the “hands on”, “in your face” nature of these arts for the tried and tested nature of their techniques. I found that true fighters make great Kravist. An instructor who has a rich history of various arts, Krav Maga and a proven track record to have trained a UFC champion is someone I would not hesitate to train under.

I’ve trained in Krav Maga when only one organization could use the “Krav Maga” name. Once again there was a big lawsuit that cannot be spoken about. Since you now see various Krav Maga systems in the US, you can assume what happened. Yes, and the entire Krav Maga community was in agreement on this issue! For the record, CKM and every other system in the US started to use the Krav maga name at the same time.

I think there will always be debates/litigation etc. around this Krav Maga system. This is only the beginning.

[jsumm54421]

Re: going from commando krav maga to krav maga

That is an interesting point. Yes, I misunderstood your question and this may be an issue for all military self defense systems. This is an issue that many in the self defense community have with all forms of military based self defense systems. Why would a civilian want to learn what law enforement and the military are doing for their self defense?

The wording always comes across as the civilians are doing what the military and law enforcement is doing. Civilians train to get home safely, law enforcement is into controlling and arresting and a soldier’s main interest is to kill. Yes, there are some things they all have in common, but, their basic needs are different. That’s why you see the different KM courses for law enforcement and military. All KM instructors I know understand that the self defense needs for civilians, law enforce and military are different and may have some common thread. However, this is hard to convey in a short amount of words when detailing the military history of the given system. However, when you dig deeper into these programs, you see separate training for law enforcement and military.

Yes, I agree, the wording may be a bit confusing, on initial reading, for most military based systems.

quote Kior:

I think you misunderstood my question. From the CKM website:

“Until very recently Moni taught CKM exclusively to special military groups around the world. However, on account of a growing demand from civilian groups, Moni agreed to start teaching civilians for the first time in his career. Now finally even civilians can learn the most elite Israeli commando unitsí techniques for armed and unarmed combat.”

[jsumm54421]

Re: going from commando krav maga to krav maga

Kior,

In reply to: “If it works for civilians and it works for the special forces why not the regular army grunts?”

I know a US Navy Seal who has had highly specialized training outside of that of a normal US soldier. I think this may be common. If you want to train in current military IDF Krav Maga then you must train with Ran or someone who has trained with him.

[jsumm54421]

Re: going from commando krav maga to krav maga

I know that IKMA is unlike KMWW in many ways yet there are noticable common threads. CKM has a totally different approach from all of these organizations, however, there is at least one common thread. Let me see if I can do it in a simple manner. This is not about what is better, but, what is the difference.

When facing multiple attackers, an individual’s chance of success is very low. This is such an important concept in CKM because it teaches that one has only a second or two to launch an attack before being overwelmed by multiple attackers. Engaging with an attacker any longer would prevent one from being able to address other attackers. Yes, one or two strikes and get out of there! CKM views staying engaged for a period of time with one attacker creates a “tunnel vision” situation leaving one unaware of the dangers lurking from others. Students are taught to quickly disengage to add distance between themselves and the attackers, thus, adding precious seconds of additonal reaction time to deal with other potential threats.

Ground defenses have a max time of 5 seconds to be executed and students are timed by their instructors. If the students take longer that 5 seconds to get off the ground then the entire class must punch, stomp and kick the student until told to stop. There are no combatives that require one to stay engaged with an attacker for more that a second or two. For the record, I have yet to see any Judo throws CKM.

CKM has different views on preemptive striking and 90% of the techniques are different from those in the various Krav Maga systems.

Unlike CKM, most Krav Maga systems add some of the most basic techniques from Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling and Small Circle Jui Jitsu to name a few. These techniques create a nice list of combatives. The key here is that Krav is interested in the simple techniques that are easy to learn in a short amount of time. Only techniques that one can execute with little effort will be useful in a real life attack. Although, many of these strikes belong to other systems, the intended targets of the strikes is what adds a bit of uniqueness to Krav Maga. CKM shares in this same understanding of the importance of attacking points of weakness.

The common thread in CKM and other forms of Krav Maga is in added reality to attacks by pressure testing a students execution of a technique. This approach is unlike most traditional martial arts and sport arts as real, mentally taxing, pressure situations are created to test ones ability to successfully execute techniques. This is where students learn that complex, awkward techniques will be of little use to them in a real life attack situation. This is the essence of reality base systems and is what Krav Maga is most respected for and is the core of all CKM training.

I train in many systems / styles so I won’t go into why I do this and what’s best because I know I’m on an island with my views. (jkd)
I am into self defense and enjoy open dialog with others who are serious about their training.

My final word is this: The street predator has only one or two techniques, but, he is a master of these techniques. His techniques are tried, tested and proven! Train in what you believe in, and remember that the system and techniques are as only as good as the person doing them.

[jsumm54421]

Re: Commando Krav Maga / CKM / Moni Aizik

JL,

Comment on your statement: “If you have not gone through Certifications in both styles, then you are on the outside looking in. If you have, then your opinion will be an informed one.”

Maybe everyone should state what systems they have certifications in so everyone can be clear on who is “informed” based on your criteria. You may be on to something! How many people on this forum have been certified in both CKM and KMWW? I don’t meet your qualifications so I am one on the outside looking in. (lol) Anyone else willing to admit that they too are on the outside looking in? I know that there are many former KMWW instructors now with CKM. I guess you don’t want to hear from them because they will explain why they left KMWW and that may be too personal.

I’m not sure what types of self defense systems are in your areas, but, in the NY tri state area, there are systems everywhere. There are only a few KMWW programs and many other systems of Krav Maga. So, it’s easy to personally see and experience different systems first hand and not just in video’s or magazine articles. That’s what I do and many individuals from other systems are on the mat with my class all the time.
I guess if all you have is message boards to get your information then use what you got. However, you really learn about a system when you move around with some serious students of that given system.

As for techniques, many of my students have trained in different systems like MMA, boxing, jiu jitsu and they don’t initially believe in outside of their style. They often come in with a “show me” mentality. Since I have trained and respect many of the arts these guys train in, we meet eye to eye on many fronts. So style clashes are normal protocol to our program and we approach each without conflict. If you have the means, visit.

[jsumm54421]

Re: Commando Krav Maga / CKM / Moni Aizik

Gadfly,

Thanks for your comment. I can agree with your position about techniques. My point on techniques can be explained like this: A simple groin kick or punch may be a “good ” technique if the one executing it has good power, speed and timing. If not, the same technique may prove to be a disaster in a real self defense situation.

If Joe drunk picks up a knife and lunges with an attack, there are many options a skilled defender may have to stay out of harms way. However, if the attacker is a skilled knife fighter and is attacking an individual forced to only work with empty hands, then the same techniques will mostly likely prove to be a huge mistake. The attacker’s and defender’s individual skills play a key role in how well a technique stands up to a real attack.

So what I wanted to highlight is that techniques go hand and hand with an individual’s personal / physical attributes. All techniques may or may not be good, however, all techniques have a potential to suffer from flawed execution.

[jsumm54421]

Re: Commando Krav Maga / CKM / Moni Aizik

I really enjoy you guys on this forum. Still and forever arguing about styles. When you train for many years with an open mind, exploring all systems and the endless possibilities available to you, I am sure you will see things differently.

I have so many personal friends training in KMWW, IKMA and CKM that I would never risk losing a friendship by system bashing. I’ve trained in KMWW for many years and I am proud of what I have learned. Just being proud in what you are training in is not enough for many here. But, beware! You may be missing the most important part of self defense.

A System/Technique is only as good as the person doing it! One of my wise self defense instructors told me, “All techniques are good. If there is a flaw, the flaw is in the man executing the technique”. I hope this is paramount in your training.

Lastly, if you are truly curious about a given system, then you should “empty your cup” and , respectfully, visit a qualified instructor in that system and sample the material for yourself. If you can be humble enough to check your ego in at the door, maybe you can make a few new friends along the way.

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